A few suggestions regarding the new CoH game design

[silvers1]

Over the years I've played a number of online games - noteably Everquest 1,  Dark Age of Camelot (DAOC),  CoH/X,  WoW,  Guild Wars 1 and 2,  and most recently Neverwinter.   Just a few observations about game design that I hope some of which make into the CoH successor.
Note:  These are just my opinions,  and I realize many will disagree on certain points, and I respect that.

1. Gear is bad - Gear Scores are bad:     I never like the whole "you are your gear" mentaility.  Never like that it controlled appearance
and that the green to blue to purple progression drastically impacted how you performed in groups.
I don't want people to have the ability to look at what I'm wearing - or what enhancements I have slotted.  frankly, it's none of their business.
I feel that the CoH devs made a mistake when they started listing what bonuses people had from their IO sets.

2.  Reward Grouping -  pick up groups are virtually non-existant in most recent games I've played for normal content. I've always loved PUGs in that you meet new people and the experience ( good or bad ) is always different vs always playing with a static group of friend from your guild.CoH did an excellent job of this and I hope the successor does the same.

3.  If you're going to have an Architect Entertainment type system, make it do everything that the Devs can do.  The AE system in CoH was very limited and frankly made it frustrating to do a real story.  I'm actually pretty impressed with what story writers have done in Neverwinter.  I would also like the ability to generate my own maps, create my own mobs, and switch contacts on the fly.  Limit the nerfing,  the CoH devs went overboard with it and broke many legitimate arcs.

4 .   NEVER make me compete for resources with other players.   This includes "Kill X" missions, "Collect X" missions,   resource nodes for crafting, chests in dungeons,  etc.

5.   Put nothing  in the game that promotes elitism.   Viewable gear scores,  DPS meters, and the like.  If you give players the ability to discriminate on perceived vs actual "ability", believe me they will.

6.   If you're going to have entrance criteria for a dungeon/TF,   make sure that most PUGs with that minimum criteria can actually complete said dungeon.    A group of reasonably competent players should be able to complete any content.  Not elite "geared" players.   Not well oiled machines with Ventrillo.   Random groups with competent players.    This cannot be said for the higher level dungeons in Neverwinter.

7.   Free to Play vs Pay to Win -  Neverwinter is a full-on pay2win system.   You can buy the best gear, best companions, best whatever for your characters.  Just have to pony up the cash.  I dont mind paying for visual stuff like costume pieces, but when it impacts how well you do performance-wise vs other players, it is unacceptable.   F2P - yes, PAY2WIN - no.

8.  Companion systems - I dont care for them.   If you're going to have specific classes designed to work with companions, that's fine.  ( like the Mastermind )     But please dont make every toon have to have a companion, like they do in Neverwinter, or GW1.   Although I prefer grouping, sometimes I like to solo, and I want my toons to truly be self dependent for most content outside of dungeons.

9.  The Tank/Healer/DPS triumvirate is bad -   I loved how you could throw almost any combination together in CoH and succeed.  You go without a tank or healer in any dungeon in most other games - you will fail.   I love the 8 man group in CoH, vs the 5 man groups you see in every other MMORPG.  Allows for greater flexibility.

10.  Class combinations -  the primary vs secondary system in CoH was great.  I also greatly enjoyed the broad range of archtype selections. In Neverwinter, you can make a tank,  a 2 handed swordsman,  a healer,  a rogue, or a ranged DPSer.  That's about it.  Boring as heck - and every group is the same.

11.  Implement true control classes  - the "Control" wizard in Neverwinter is actually quite pathetic compared to what we had in CoH.
Control was an actual viable strategy in CoH, control in Neverwinter much less so.
 
12.  Make a tank a TANK - a tank is a brick wall.  A tank is not a big bag of hit points that a healer has to keep replenishing.   CoH is the only game I've ever seen that got it right.   The taunt system in CoH is excellent,   keeping aggro in Neverwinter is an excercise in frustration.   I also like how you could buy knock-back resistance enhancements in CoH.  I do not like the fact that you have to constantly stop what you're doing with tanks in Neverwinter to block incoming attacks - it should be inherent.

13.  Keep the CoH Buff/Debuff system -  a group in CoH was greater than the sum of its parts, mostly in part to the buffs and debuffs.   Can't say the same in any other game I've played.

14.  Make an excellent LFG/LFM system -  this is one area where CoH failed miserably and you could look to other games like Neverwinter for ideas on how to make it better.

15.  Targeting - Please, please, please, do not use the FPS style targeting system like they have in Neverwinter.  The mouse is supposed to be used to click buttons and other GUI elements - not used as a clickfest for attacking mobs you have in your reticle.   And it really makes single target healng non-viable.  Clerics are pretty much limited to using area effect heals in Neverwinter due to the targeting problem.   I dont want this designed for console players, I play on a PC.

16.   Travel time -  Loved how you could go from place to place quickly in CoH.  Traveling is an issue in other games.   Typically, you have to fight your way through 100s of mobs just to get where you're going to do your mission.  A royal pain, and a timesink I dont care for.  The only change I would make is to perhaps replace the "train" system with a map waypoint teleport system, like they have in GW1.

17.  Two strikes and you're out -  Seriously, what was Cryptic thinking?   In Neverwinter dungeons,
if you die twice on the final boss fight, you're out - placed in the penatly box and forced to wait either until the rest of the group wins or wipes.  I dont want to see anything like this in our successor.

18. Multiple currency systems -  every new game is guilty of this.  CoH went down this road.  Stop already, and stick with one currency please.

19.  Gold Spammers - not sure how to stop them, but put some kind of level and or play-time requirement before you can use help or zone chat.

20.  Chat system -  CoH had by far the best chat system ever. In any game I've played.   Keep intact as much as possible.

21.  Looting - I liked the loot system in CoH.   I get what I get independently of any other player.  Dont have to pick it up from the floor, it just appears in inventory.  No loot rolling, or fighting over need vs greed.

22. Inventory - eliminate inventory caps or make them very large please.  Make it easier to exchange items between your characters.  (i.e.  a global bank )

23.  Boss Design - please stop making bosses immune to everything.   More resistant, yes.  Totally immune, no.  CoH was somewhat guilty of this, especially in the iTrials.

[silvers1]

One more addition:
24.  Healing causing aggro - I dont think so....  incredibly bad game mechanic.  It should be limited to damage and taunting only.

Oops, I meant for this thread to go in the general discussion section ... if a mod could move it, I'd appreciate it.

[therain93]

Just curious, on #14, what game do you think had/has a better LFG/LFM system?  I actually found CoH's to be fairly good.

[silvers1]

Just curious, on #14, what game do you think had/has a better LFG/LFM system?  I actually found CoH's to be fairly good.

CoH's LFG was decent... but very few people actually used it.  Not sure why.   It seriously needed a queing system for TFs, not just iTrials.
Too much spam on the channels just for groups.

While Neverwinter doesnt have a real LFG system, the dungeon queuing system works fairly well.  ( When playing a non dps toon, try getting a group as a rogue, it isnt happening )   CoH's iTrial queues seemed to take forever.
GW1 had an ok LFM system, but you had to be in the zone where the dungeon was located.


Ideally, I'd like the following:
A popup dialog with:
A dropdown where the user can select what they want to do, whether it be just normal PVE missions, a specific dungeon or trial, or PVP.
A checkbox indicating whether you are LFG or LFM.
A checkbox indicating whether you want to auto-add or be auto-added to a group.  (i.e. queued )
A comment box.
A submit button.
A stop/clear button to clear selections and unqueue.

Below this will show a list of players server-wide who are looking for the same thing.  A link allowing you to contact each player.  Another link allowing you to invite said player.

Beside each player, an indicator showing whether you've sent an invite or whether the player has declined so you dont inadvertantly invite again.

[Thunder Glove]

Not that I'm part of any of them (yet?), but of the three successor projects currently in production (the Phoenix Project, Heroes and Villains, and Valiance Online), two of them are hewing very (maybe too) close to CoH for many of those items already (with the third still using CoH as the baseline and expanding on it), and other aspects are still way too early in development.

So none of them intend to have Gear or Gear scores, they all plan to have a wide variety of character possibilities (TPP more than the other two, at least from early design discussions), they're going to have real Control and Tank classes, pets/companions will not be required (but will be available if you like Mastermind-type classes), the "Holy Trinity" will not be required or enforced, etc.

... I don't know how much "one currency system" can really be followed, at least in the long term.  I can't think of a single long-running game that has only one.  The issue is that people get so much of the main currency that it becomes meaningless, so the devs put in new currencies when they add content that is meant to be special in some way.  This way, long-time players will have to earn the new currency, and not just skip over new content by buying their way through it.  (For example, everyone would have had all the new costume pieces and all their slots at Tier 4 on the first day of the release of the Incarnate system if they'd used Inf rather than Incarnate Shards, Incarnate Threads, or Astral and Empyrean Merits)

Finally, while the various devs still hang around here, most of the in-depth development discussions are on the projects' own respective forums: http://www.cityoftitans.com (The Phoenix Project), http://www.www.heroes-and-villains.com (Heroes and Villains), and http://valiance.shogn.net/ (Valiance Online).  Not saying that this topic won't be helpful, but if you want to address the various dev teams directly, those would probably be the places to go.

[Golden Girl]

Looking at your list, I think the only thing "Heroes and Villains" might do that you mightn't like is the "companion system" - but even then, the way it's currently planned isn't going to lead to "companion spam" - apart from that, everything else you mentioned will be appearing in some form in HaV.

[General Idiot]

CoH's LFG was decent... but very few people actually used it.  Not sure why.   It seriously needed a queing system for TFs, not just iTrials.
Too much spam on the channels just for groups.

Fun fact: CoH actually HAD a queueing system for taskforces. No one used it, because forming your own group from the global LFG channel was easier for most.

Personally, I think LFG systems like that are unnecessary and cut out a large part of what makes MMOs fun. In almost every game I've ever played that has one, you join a queue and it forms the group for you, then you go into the dungeon or whatever and throughout the whole thing no one says a word. You end up not playing with other people, but rather playing by yourself in an environment that just happens to have other people in it. It cuts out the whole social aspect of the game, which for me is where most of the fun comes from in an MMO.

[silvers1]

Fun fact: CoH actually HAD a queueing system for taskforces. No one used it, because forming your own group from the global LFG channel was easier for most.

Personally, I think LFG systems like that are unnecessary and cut out a large part of what makes MMOs fun. In almost every game I've ever played that has one, you join a queue and it forms the group for you, then you go into the dungeon or whatever and throughout the whole thing no one says a word. You end up not playing with other people, but rather playing by yourself in an environment that just happens to have other people in it. It cuts out the whole social aspect of the game, which for me is where most of the fun comes from in an MMO.

I'd have to agree with some groups never speaking a word - but that happened in CoH quite a bit as well, regardless how the group was formed.
I'd like to see an integrated voice chat system implemented, similar to what I've seen in Neverwinter. It allows communication without having to stop to type.  Ventrillo and Teamspeak are options, but you rarely see everyone in a PUG have it available.

I'd also like a map ping/draw option that I saw in GW1, to allow the team leader to point out spots on the map.  Note:  You'd also need a checkbox option to turn it off on your client in case someone abuses it.

[JaguarX]

I'd have to agree with some groups never speaking a word - but that happened in CoH quite a bit as well, regardless how the group was formed.
I'd like to see an integrated voice chat system implemented, similar to what I've seen in Neverwinter. It allows communication without having to stop to type.  Ventrillo and Teamspeak are options, but you rarely see everyone in a PUG have it available.

I'd also like a map ping/draw option that I saw in GW1, to allow the team leader to point out spots on the map.  Note:  You'd also need a checkbox option to turn it off on your client in case someone abuses it.

yeah I teamed wit ha few people that have it. It seems handy but me I would never get it and after about five minutes I was reaching for the mute button.

While I don't mind being social in games, I really don't care much for hearing other people's voices. It's like having a phone conference. Do enough of those at work and me personally rather not do it in a game when I'm trying to relax.

But I still say it should be a feature integrated into a game as it seems enough people like it to make it a useful tool.

[downix]

Just curious, on #14, what game do you think had/has a better LFG/LFM system?  I actually found CoH's to be fairly good.

Of all things, APB has a good one as well.

[PSI-on]

I agreed HUGELY with everything here with some slight exceptions:

#1. Agreed, I'd much rather have what CoH had and buy or invent my own boosts to powers individually.

#8. I love the idea of companions in themselves, especially if we can customize them like our characters and build our own TRUE sidekicks. I never really noticed that NW made you have to have them, just that they never went away. As for GW, they just allowed you to fill in your team with an AI character so you could fill a role you were missing. It was possible to solo stuff without help, but the main issue there wasn't forcing you to have to have companions, but rather a TEAM as all content and area's spawned the same no matter if you were one person or 8. (on a side note, me and my girlfriend thought of some awesome idea for a companion/sidekick system that would make them useful in groups without getting in the way.)

#9 Going to boost the point on team size. It wasn't just the awesomeness of variety you could pull on 8 vs. 5 size, I typically ran into issues where I had more than 8 people who wanted to play with me some days and some people got left out, now in games capped at 5 you can imagine how much more annoying that can be to have to pick and choose. I think 8 was an awesome number, enough for pretty much everyone, even now i typically have 5 people who wanna play with me, counting myself that's one person who has to sit out, who wants to have to make that choice?

#16. As long as I don't have to pay or give something up to use the travel waypoints you have my vote. Loved that about CoH and GW, GW 2 makes you pay to use them to travel AND to rez (if I recall) so I'll pass. Personal peeve, but I'm already paying a lot for convenience and the game, don't make me spend my hard earned currency on trifles. Sometimes realistic stuff can be neat or interesting, but it can also be a major drag and pointless. (like paying Rent or travel fees)

#20. OMG boosting this one too. EVERY CHAT IN OTHER GAMES SUCKS. I don't wanna talk to people in STO when I'm in CO, it gets confusing when looking for help, to help or just swapping tips. Also in CoX you could create many tabs and chose what was in them, was awesome, some games like GW gives you so bare minimum it's insane.

#22. I loved that CoX didn't really have an inventory, It didn't trigger any hoarding or collecting impulses and didn't bog me down like I feel in STO, CO, and NW....GW and GW 2. BUT if you have to do it....be thoughtful like SWTOR and make it not only easier to expand inventory for ALL characters at once and make banks huge, but I think it's essential to have a whole section for quest/mission items. Nothing is more insulting than having a character give you something and have it take up space you needed for loot or other needed items.

And now my own addition:

A. No more grind fests! I don't know about everyone else, but I wanna play a game cause it's fun and I like it, NOT because if I don't log in today I'll miss my daily or I'll lose a day saving up for some gear. Don't get me wrong, I know you have to have stuff to work towards, but CoX never made it feel out of reach when they did have something and never really had any thing til Incarnate, but even THEN it was actually FUN to do that content over and over, they did it right. Meanwhile you've got choirs to do in NW and STO and in GW the best gear *and by that I mean it's LOOK not it's STATS* you have to grind up 60 Platinum (1000 gold a piece) to buy it and that takes time (prices vary on gear and piece bought) AND grind to get salvage needed to craft it, sometimes it's insane (Ecto anyone?). Please do not make me come to your game to grind or farm, a game should be a game, not a job. I've always believed that if you have to pad or sustain your game by forcing players to keep playing not out of content or fun, but by gates, lofty goals, and grinding, forced work then your game was already a failure. I logged into CoX cause it was fun and amazing, well written and well made, everything else I log into so I don't miss some daily thing and I resent it.

Over the years I've played a number of online games - noteably Everquest 1,  Dark Age of Camelot (DAOC),  CoH/X,  WoW,  Guild Wars 1 and 2,  and most recently Neverwinter.   Just a few observations about game design that I hope some of which make into the CoH successor.
Note:  These are just my opinions,  and I realize many will disagree on certain points, and I respect that.

1. Gear is bad - Gear Scores are bad:     I never like the whole "you are your gear" mentaility.  Never like that it controlled appearance
and that the green to blue to purple progression drastically impacted how you performed in groups.
I don't want people to have the ability to look at what I'm wearing - or what enhancements I have slotted.  frankly, it's none of their business.
I feel that the CoH devs made a mistake when they started listing what bonuses people had from their IO sets.

2.  Reward Grouping -  pick up groups are virtually non-existant in most recent games I've played for normal content. I've always loved PUGs in that you meet new people and the experience ( good or bad ) is always different vs always playing with a static group of friend from your guild.CoH did an excellent job of this and I hope the successor does the same.

3.  If you're going to have an Architect Entertainment type system, make it do everything that the Devs can do.  The AE system in CoH was very limited and frankly made it frustrating to do a real story.  I'm actually pretty impressed with what story writers have done in Neverwinter.  I would also like the ability to generate my own maps, create my own mobs, and switch contacts on the fly.  Limit the nerfing,  the CoH devs went overboard with it and broke many legitimate arcs.

4 .   NEVER make me compete for resources with other players.   This includes "Kill X" missions, "Collect X" missions,   resource nodes for crafting, chests in dungeons,  etc.

5.   Put nothing  in the game that promotes elitism.   Viewable gear scores,  DPS meters, and the like.  If you give players the ability to discriminate on perceived vs actual "ability", believe me they will.

6.   If you're going to have entrance criteria for a dungeon/TF,   make sure that most PUGs with that minimum criteria can actually complete said dungeon.    A group of reasonably competent players should be able to complete any content.  Not elite "geared" players.   Not well oiled machines with Ventrillo.   Random groups with competent players.    This cannot be said for the higher level dungeons in Neverwinter.

7.   Free to Play vs Pay to Win -  Neverwinter is a full-on pay2win system.   You can buy the best gear, best companions, best whatever for your characters.  Just have to pony up the cash.  I dont mind paying for visual stuff like costume pieces, but when it impacts how well you do performance-wise vs other players, it is unacceptable.   F2P - yes, PAY2WIN - no.

8.  Companion systems - I dont care for them.   If you're going to have specific classes designed to work with companions, that's fine.  ( like the Mastermind )     But please dont make every toon have to have a companion, like they do in Neverwinter, or GW1.   Although I prefer grouping, sometimes I like to solo, and I want my toons to truly be self dependent for most content outside of dungeons.

9.  The Tank/Healer/DPS triumvirate is bad -   I loved how you could throw almost any combination together in CoH and succeed.  You go without a tank or healer in any dungeon in most other games - you will fail.   I love the 8 man group in CoH, vs the 5 man groups you see in every other MMORPG.  Allows for greater flexibility.

10.  Class combinations -  the primary vs secondary system in CoH was great.  I also greatly enjoyed the broad range of archtype selections. In Neverwinter, you can make a tank,  a 2 handed swordsman,  a healer,  a rogue, or a ranged DPSer.  That's about it.  Boring as heck - and every group is the same.

11.  Implement true control classes  - the "Control" wizard in Neverwinter is actually quite pathetic compared to what we had in CoH.
Control was an actual viable strategy in CoH, control in Neverwinter much less so.
 
12.  Make a tank a TANK - a tank is a brick wall.  A tank is not a big bag of hit points that a healer has to keep replenishing.   CoH is the only game I've ever seen that got it right.   The taunt system in CoH is excellent,   keeping aggro in Neverwinter is an excercise in frustration.   I also like how you could buy knock-back resistance enhancements in CoH.  I do not like the fact that you have to constantly stop what you're doing with tanks in Neverwinter to block incoming attacks - it should be inherent.

13.  Keep the CoH Buff/Debuff system -  a group in CoH was greater than the sum of its parts, mostly in part to the buffs and debuffs.   Can't say the same in any other game I've played.

14.  Make an excellent LFG/LFM system -  this is one area where CoH failed miserably and you could look to other games like Neverwinter for ideas on how to make it better.

15.  Targeting - Please, please, please, do not use the FPS style targeting system like they have in Neverwinter.  The mouse is supposed to be used to click buttons and other GUI elements - not used as a clickfest for attacking mobs you have in your reticle.   And it really makes single target healng non-viable.  Clerics are pretty much limited to using area effect heals in Neverwinter due to the targeting problem.   I dont want this designed for console players, I play on a PC.

16.   Travel time -  Loved how you could go from place to place quickly in CoH.  Traveling is an issue in other games.   Typically, you have to fight your way through 100s of mobs just to get where you're going to do your mission.  A royal pain, and a timesink I dont care for.  The only change I would make is to perhaps replace the "train" system with a map waypoint teleport system, like they have in GW1.

17.  Two strikes and you're out -  Seriously, what was Cryptic thinking?   In Neverwinter dungeons,
if you die twice on the final boss fight, you're out - placed in the penatly box and forced to wait either until the rest of the group wins or wipes.  I dont want to see anything like this in our successor.

18. Multiple currency systems -  every new game is guilty of this.  CoH went down this road.  Stop already, and stick with one currency please.

19.  Gold Spammers - not sure how to stop them, but put some kind of level and or play-time requirement before you can use help or zone chat.

20.  Chat system -  CoH had by far the best chat system ever. In any game I've played.   Keep intact as much as possible.

21.  Looting - I liked the loot system in CoH.   I get what I get independently of any other player.  Dont have to pick it up from the floor, it just appears in inventory.  No loot rolling, or fighting over need vs greed.

22. Inventory - eliminate inventory caps or make them very large please.  Make it easier to exchange items between your characters.  (i.e.  a global bank )

23.  Boss Design - please stop making bosses immune to everything.   More resistant, yes.  Totally immune, no.  CoH was somewhat guilty of this, especially in the iTrials.

[Golden Girl]

I'd have to agree with some groups never speaking a word - but that happened in CoH quite a bit as well, regardless how the group was formed.
I'd like to see an integrated voice chat system implemented, similar to what I've seen in Neverwinter. It allows communication without having to stop to type.  Ventrillo and Teamspeak are options, but you rarely see everyone in a PUG have it available.

We've been looking into voice options, and from what we've seen, it'd take a lot of time and effort to create a voice chat program that could match existing ones like Teamspeak or Ventrillo, which kind of puts this particular area of development in the "reinventing the wheel" category.

[Golden Girl]

I love the idea of companions in themselves, especially if we can customize them like our characters and build our own TRUE sidekicks. I never really noticed that NW made you have to have them, just that they never went away. As for GW, they just allowed you to fill in your team with an AI character so you could fill a role you were missing. It was possible to solo stuff without help, but the main issue there wasn't forcing you to have to have companions, but rather a TEAM as all content and area's spawned the same no matter if you were one person or 8. (on a side note, me and my girlfriend thought of some awesome idea for a companion/sidekick system that would make them useful in groups without getting in the way.)

Right now, customized companions are something that we have planned for the future - at launch, companions will be pre-sets.

No more grind fests! I don't know about everyone else, but I wanna play a game cause it's fun and I like it, NOT because if I don't log in today I'll miss my daily or I'll lose a day saving up for some gear. Don't get me wrong, I know you have to have stuff to work towards, but CoX never made it feel out of reach when they did have something and never really had any thing til Incarnate, but even THEN it was actually FUN to do that content over and over, they did it right. Meanwhile you've got choirs to do in NW and STO and in GW the best gear *and by that I mean it's LOOK not it's STATS* you have to grind up 60 Platinum (1000 gold a piece) to buy it and that takes time (prices vary on gear and piece bought) AND grind to get salvage needed to craft it, sometimes it's insane (Ecto anyone?). Please do not make me come to your game to grind or farm, a game should be a game, not a job. I've always believed that if you have to pad or sustain your game by forcing players to keep playing not out of content or fun, but by gates, lofty goals, and grinding, forced work then your game was already a failure. I logged into CoX cause it was fun and amazing, well written and well made, everything else I log into so I don't miss some daily thing and I resent it.

We're designing HaV to have no enforced griding - but still with an option to repeat tasks if that's the way players like to play.

[JaguarX]

sounds like HaV is shaping up to be a good game.

[PSI-on]

would it be possible to find a way to integrate current ones or skype? In the same way STO and CO let you use winamp or itunes to play your music with it through the game? Creating your own is good, but this might be easier? Also NW has a push to talk function, that could do well in a pinch.

We've been looking into voice options, and from what we've seen, it'd take a lot of time and effort to create a voice chat program that could match existing ones like Teamspeak or Ventrillo, which kind of puts this particular area of development in the "reinventing the wheel" category.

[PSI-on]

As long as one day I can change his name, costume, powers, or equipment (or at least close to Heros on GW) I'll be very happy, even more so if later I can make one from scratch the same way I make characters in game (bio, costume, powers at each lvl up, pre-set personality type for chatter *again see GW*) then it would be amazing.

And to clarify the other point. I don't mind replaying content. Many missions and TF's I did over and over in CoX for badges or reward, but it didn't bog me down cause the rewards didn't seem as important as others (enhancements vs. must have survival armor and gear) or were not so out of reach, but SO much more importantly because it was FUN, it was INTERESTING, the game play was STELLAR, and you people were simply AMAZING to be around 99.8% of the time. (I won't lie I did occasionally trip over the rare jerk once or twice, otherwise I've never been more proud to know people, let alone be a part of them.)

Right now, customized companions are something that we have planned for the future - at launch, companions will be pre-sets.

We're designing HaV to have no enforced griding - but still with an option to repeat tasks if that's the way players like to play.

[Golden Girl]

sounds like HaV is shaping up to be a good game.

Well, that's the reason the project exists

[Golden Girl]

would it be possible to find a way to integrate current ones or skype? In the same way STO and CO let you use winamp or itunes to play your music with it through the game? Creating your own is good, but this might be easier? Also NW has a push to talk function, that could do well in a pinch.

We haven't looked into that yet - but it could be possible.

[Golden Girl]

As long as one day I can change his name, costume, powers, or equipment (or at least close to Heros on GW) I'll be very happy, even more so if later I can make one from scratch the same way I make characters in game (bio, costume, powers at each lvl up, pre-set personality type for chatter *again see GW*) then it would be amazing.

That would be a related but separate system.

And to clarify the other point. I don't mind replaying content. Many missions and TF's I did over and over in CoX for badges or reward, but it didn't bog me down cause the rewards didn't seem as important as others (enhancements vs. must have survival armor and gear) or were not so out of reach, but SO much more importantly because it was FUN, it was INTERESTING, the game play was STELLAR, and you people were simply AMAZING to be around 99.8% of the time. (I won't lie I did occasionally trip over the rare jerk once or twice, otherwise I've never been more proud to know people, let alone be a part of them.)

Well, we're designing the content to be interesting, so hopefully people will feel it fun to play even if they've already gotten the rewards from it

[PSI-on]

Your first reply intrigues me.

And I'm sure you are, no disrespect intended. I'm drawing a comparison from happily hopping into my 97th ITF (CoX) and dragging my ass through just one Infected STF (STO) before I already get tired of the mission and frankly the game at some points.

That would be a related but separate system.

Well, we're designing the content to be interesting, so hopefully people will feel it fun to play even if they've already gotten the rewards from it

[silvers1]

While we're throwing out ideas, one thing I'd like to see implemented is an epic story arc that spans from level 1 to max level, like GW1 had.

Every online game out there, all the quests seem to be disjointed, totally unrelated stories.

What would be even more awesome than what GW1 had would be multiple epic story arcs based on archtype + origin.  ( and have brand new story arcs introdoced with each issue, so your new toons can do something different )

The thing that aggravates me the most about all online games is replaying the same content over and over.  It gets old - and you end up with people doing nothing but radio missions or the DFB mission over and over again.

[downix]

We've been looking into voice options, and from what we've seen, it'd take a lot of time and effort to create a voice chat program that could match existing ones like Teamspeak or Ventrillo, which kind of puts this particular area of development in the "reinventing the wheel" category.

Look into Steam integration. Steam offers voice chat options as well.

[cybermitheral]

I get weird delays when using Steam chat.
Playing BL2 with my 3 mates I would hear myself 3 seconds after I actually spoke which was VERY annoying.
Switch to Skype and no delay at all.  (Not that Im recommending Skype mind you )

[Karasu]

Actually, quick note here and only mentioning it because it's an MMO that has voice chat built in, but EVE online as a system for built in VOIP. Not really sure how it stacks up vs mumble/vent/ts/skype.

Also though it was stated earlier in a broader sense, I beg you to return scrappers to us. I've been getting that itch to just go a'murdering and can't find any MMO anywhere that has anything comparable.

[silvers1]

Looking at your list, I think the only thing "Heroes and Villains" might do that you mightn't like is the "companion system" - but even then, the way it's currently planned isn't going to lead to "companion spam" - apart from that, everything else you mentioned will be appearing in some form in HaV.

The only thing I'd ask is that the game isn't balanced around the assumption that you have a companion.  For example, in Neverwinter,
if you go solo without a healer companion for your melee toon, you will find yourself chugging healing potions left and right.  The dependency is there, and I don't much care for it.
In GW1,I believe you could have up to 3 companions, and you simply couldnt survive without them unless you had very specific builds tailored for certain mobs.
True soloabiity is important to me.

[PSI-on]

Gosh, I've been tired ALL day, I FINALLY remembered one more thing I meant to suggest.

B. DON'T penalize for defeat. Good god, why? Death and defeat are already negative and sometimes shameful situations, so why compound them further by breaking gear, taking XP or money, weakening the player to the point they can't possibly go on, or force them into a negative debuff they must either sit out for OR buy from the cash store to get rid of it. I have never understood the point of further pushing players for bad design, foolish mistakes, rookie mistakes, being unprepared, bad team match up, and so on some of which being out of their hands. Defeat already takes you out of the fight and fun, it can be embarrassing, sometimes it requires long travel times to get back to where you were (sometimes making the whole team wait for you), and in some cases cost you achievements, prizes, or whole missions, so why have yet another punishment lined up. Frankly I think it not only adds insult to injury and just...why...but but quashes creativity to come up with new ideas, strategies, theory and curiosity testing, or coming up with extra little fun ideas. One of the few things I love about STO is there's no penalty for defeat (except on STF's or higher difficulties). If they can do it, it should work easily anywhere else.

[PSI-on]

Yes, only 3 (can't recall if you could combine heroes and Henchmen to make a full team of but yes also most true solo builds were very specific and hard to do from what I've seen and pretty much brand you to Assassin. You are right.

The only thing I'd ask is that the game isn't balanced around the assumption that you have a companion.  For example, in Neverwinter,
if you go solo without a healer companion for your melee toon, you will find yourself chugging healing potions left and right.  The dependency is there, and I don't much care for it.
In GW1,I believe you could have up to 3 companions, and you simply couldnt survive without them unless you had very specific builds tailored for certain mobs.
True soloabiity is important to me.

[silvers1]

Gosh, I've been tired ALL day, I FINALLY remembered one more thing I meant to suggest.

B. DON'T penalize for defeat. Good god, why? Death and defeat are already negative and sometimes shameful situations, so why compound them further by breaking gear, taking XP or money, weakening the player to the point they can't possibly go on, or force them into a negative debuff they must either sit out for OR buy from the cash store to get rid of it. I have never understood the point of further pushing players for bad design, foolish mistakes, rookie mistakes, being unprepared, bad team match up, and so on some of which being out of their hands. Defeat already takes you out of the fight and fun, it can be embarrassing, sometimes it requires long travel times to get back to where you were (sometimes making the whole team wait for you), and in some cases cost you achievements, prizes, or whole missions, so why have yet another punishment lined up. Frankly I think it not only adds insult to injury and just...why...but but quashes creativity to come up with new ideas, strategies, theory and curiosity testing, or coming up with extra little fun ideas. One of the few things I love about STO is there's no penalty for defeat (except on STF's or higher difficulties). If they can do it, it should work easily anywhere else.

Agreed.  In CoH, the embarrassment of dieing combined with the travel time was sufficient penalty IMO.  Didnt much care for the xp debt, but it usually didnt take long to work it off.

The two strikes and you have to sit out for the duration penalty in Neverwinter is one of the harshest I've seen since EQ1.

In GW1, you had a death penalty which reduced your effectiveness until you "worked it off" by killing mobs.  Die several times and you pretty much
had to start the mission over.  Again, overly harsh.

[Golden Girl]

Gosh, I've been tired ALL day, I FINALLY remembered one more thing I meant to suggest.

DON'T penalize for defeat.

In HaV, when you're defeated, you can choose to respawn where you are, or respawn at the mission entrance - when you respawn, you need to recover your health and stamina, which is where the time penalty comes in - there are no hospitals or loading screens involved in defeat. The option to respawn at the mission door is for situations where respawning where you fell would be a problem, such as enemies still being active in the area.

[Golden Girl]

The only thing I'd ask is that the game isn't balanced around the assumption that you have a companion.

It isn't - it's being designed to give a very similar feel to playing CoH, with things like companions being added extras.

[Floride]

1. Gear is bad - Gear Scores are bad:     I never like the whole "you are your gear" mentaility.

I always saw this as a throwback to single player game design. Devs would make guns and armor better as you progressed, but didn't know any other way to make a game when they started making games where players interacted with other players. Once devs matured to this flaw and made games where skill progression trumped gear progression, interactive games became much more fun. Then they got greedy and brought back the gear just to pillage their players with endless micro-transactions.

And as always, the standard disclaimer: IMO.

[therain93]

Regarding voice -- I'm not really a fan, for a few reasons --
 
1.  It can be really immersion-breaking, depending on the voice.
2.  If the voice is irritating (or just a babbler), it can be muted, but possibly at the expense of critical information.
3.  In my experience, voice works for small groups, but if you ever assembled a league or raid, it would be insane to coordinate, especially with no "scrollback" access.  Of course, you could use chat for that, and voice for everything else, but then it's a matter of making sure everyone is paying attention to the right channels.
 
For the value a voice chat system offers, I'd rather see the development teams invest in other features.
 
 

[Phaetan]

I do not really like voice chat, especially integrated into a game as something required and expected.
If you must have it, please ensure that there's some method included to not penalize those who have hearing issues or simply choose not to use voice chat.

[Golden Girl]

For the value a voice chat system offers, I'd rather see the development teams invest in other features.

This is pretty much our position right now - we're trying to match a game that had over 8 years of professionally developed content, so our focus is on creating similar content first, then adding new stuff later.

[PSI-on]

GW 1: Or an area. Imagine trying so hard to get through a huge, tough zone to get to the next hub only to be to weak, having to go back to your last hub to wipe it and do the whole thing over and over again. In missions it sucks but I can see that as a feature about missions, but it hampered EVERYTHING.

Agreed.  In CoH, the embarrassment of dieing combined with the travel time was sufficient penalty IMO.  Didnt much care for the xp debt, but it usually didnt take long to work it off.

The two strikes and you have to sit out for the duration penalty in Neverwinter is one of the harshest I've seen since EQ1.

In GW1, you had a death penalty which reduced your effectiveness until you "worked it off" by killing mobs.  Die several times and you pretty much
had to start the mission over.  Again, overly harsh.

[PSI-on]

How long is the time penalty, how do you gain it back? And honest question here: WHY does there need to be a second punishment for failure? What's the justification? Not upset mind you, just honestly interesting in why you guys decided to do anything like that when it's not a requirement to have an extra punishment and ultimately up to you. What's the game makers thought process behind this sort of situation?

In HaV, when you're defeated, you can choose to respawn where you are, or respawn at the mission entrance - when you respawn, you need to recover your health and stamina, which is where the time penalty comes in - there are no hospitals or loading screens involved in defeat. The option to respawn at the mission door is for situations where respawning where you fell would be a problem, such as enemies still being active in the area.

[Golden Girl]

How long is the time penalty, how do you gain it back? And honest question here: WHY does there need to be a second punishment for failure? What's the justification? Not upset mind you, just honestly interesting in why you guys decided to do anything like that when it's not a requirement to have an extra punishment and ultimately up to you. What's the game makers thought process behind this sort of situation?

The time penalty hasn't been set yet, but it's likely to be somewhere around 20-30 seconds, which is significantly quicker than than the 2 loading screens and hospital run penalty in CoH.
The idea behind some form of "speed bump" when you're defeated is to encourage a bit of tactical thinking, as well as add a small element of risk.

[PSI-on]

Frankly I think defeat itself is the risk, especially when it takes you out of the fight, or team work and so on, but I can see what you mean. I wouldn't mind this one if you're pretty much describing the same type of penalty that came with using an awaken, where you couldn't get back health or end through regen for a few seconds. (if I recall correctly), but if I had my way, I wouldn't wanna have any extra penalty at all. Loading screens and hospitals are "inconveniences" while boxes, debuffs, debts, breakage, lost of money/xp, and timers are actual punishments and at least in my opinion feel like they slow the game play down. Always good to stop and think tactically, but seems like positive reinforcement would be preferable to negative and if there's one thing I've noticed about MMO players these days is all they wanna do is rush rush rush, I'm not sure a penalty will actually fix that, but will add extra strife to those of us who were trying legitimately from the get go. At least that's how I've always felt about defeat punishments. I will say though if I had to be spanked twice what you've suggested is much more kind then what I normally see in other games (except those who already don't have one at all).

The time penalty hasn't been set yet, but it's likely to be somewhere around 20-30 seconds, which is significantly quicker than than the 2 loading screens and hospital run penalty in CoH.
The idea behind some form of "speed bump" when you're defeated is to encourage a bit of tactical thinking, as well as add a small element of risk.

[Golden Girl]

Frankly I think defeat itself is the risk, especially when it takes you out of the fight, or team work and so on

The thing is, without a time penalty, then defeat wouldn't really take you out of the fight at all - you'd go down, then pop back up again the next second and continue from where you left off, with the only inconvenience being having to reactivate your toggles.

[PSI-on]

I'm still not sure I see the reason for it at all still, but I think this also points out my point well. I've said STO doesn't have a punishment for defeat, but it does have a count down timer before you can respawn. I never thought of that as a punishment or penalty, but an inconvenience, perhaps that could be acceptable enough? Could a merciful inconvenience such as a 5 second to 1 minute scaling (only in teams or TF's I'd hope) respawn timer be enough to accentuate the defeat and give it meaning without a further delay, punishment, or hindrance to the player (and in some cases his team) after finally getting up?  Again, it's just my preference, but I'd much rather be embarrassed on the floor, then a weakened burden to the team when I am up. Also I find most players are much kinder about players being stuck on the floor (especially if it's cause of a timer) then players just standing around (regardless the reason why).  That being said, is this respawn with full health, but with a penalty to HP and Stamina regen for the time limit Or a penalty to HP and Stamina amount on respawn *needing to get it back over time, healing, item, resting, ect.).

The thing is, without a time penalty, then defeat wouldn't really take you out of the fight at all - you'd go down, then pop back up again the next second and continue from where you left off, with the only inconvenience being having to reactivate your toggles.

[Golden Girl]

The respawn in HaV is similar to Rest in CoH - you're in a recovery position while your green and blue bars refill.

[PSI-on]

So you would respawn just as soon as you clicked and chose where, but be placed into a mandatory rest situation? Are you protected if you say, respawn right there while your team was still fighting?

EDIT: Either way I actually think this is awesome. It's not a punishment, it's a minor (30 sec) inconvenience and I think that's good, better in fact then some others. To be fair I'd much rather be stuck getting my HP and Stamina back for the time I was out than to spend that time waiting to get up at all. Doesn't give me the feeling of being punished, that's what I look for in defeat events.

The respawn in HaV is similar to Rest in CoH - you're in a recovery position while your green and blue bars refill.

[cybermitheral]

Sorry GG but do you mean you are FORCED into a Rest state after respawning or you have the choice to enter the Rest state or continue as you are (half HP/End) and let your standard regen/recover rate get you back up meaning if I chose to I could re-enter the fight?

[Golden Girl]

Sorry GG but do you mean you are FORCED into a Rest state after respawning or you have the choice to enter the Rest state or continue as you are (half HP/End) and let your standard regen/recover rate get you back up meaning if I chose to I could re-enter the fight?

The current plan is for it to be enforced - that's where the time penalty comes from.

[Ohioknight]

The thing is, without a time penalty, then defeat wouldn't really take you out of the fight at all - you'd go down, then pop back up again the next second and continue from where you left off, with the only inconvenience being having to reactivate your toggles.

So if I may ask, how are you thinking of handling street crime?  I know you're focusing on missions, but I personally really enjoyed street sweeping and if you just regen where you fell, you'll get creamed by the gang -- and there's no mission start to go to...

For what it's worth, I was predominantly solo playing regen scrappers towards the end because the quick recharge on the res power (and the bonus res's I was picking up) essentially meant I could pop up even in a gang and run away to heal before returning to kick the gang

[Golden Girl]

So if I may ask, how are you thinking of handling street crime?  I know you're focusing on missions, but I personally really enjoyed street sweeping and if you just regen where you fell, you'll get creamed by the gang -- and there's no mission start to go to...

That'll be handled in a similar way to the Safeguard mission respawns, or places like the hazard zone medical areas - you'll be able to respawn at the nearest designated safe spot on the map.

[silvers1]

The current plan is for it to be enforced - that's where the time penalty comes from.

To be honest, I'd rather go with the current respawn in the nearest hospital.   While the penalty time
may end up being the same as traveling from the hospital to the mission door - the "feel" is that you're making
me sit around doing nothing twiddling my thumbs.  I'd rather spend that time actually doing something
( i.e. flying, superspeeding, whatever )  Penalty boxes will annoy the userbase.

Perhaps a compromise .... 1st death = respawn at the mission door with no res penalty.   2nd death and up = respawn at the hospital.
Another idea that I've seen in Neverwinter is "injury kits".  While most players hate money sinks - they are needed to keep the money supply
down over time.

I also hope we arent going to be losing the self res inspirations.

[Nightmarer]

Either the new way GG is proposing or the old hospital respawning way, I feel the time penalty to be a good thing. Even with XP penalty it was annoying enough in CoH when you ended up with an idiot in a TF that tended to get the whole team killed over and over so, a few seconds to calm down some people after death will be welcome.

[Relitner]

To be honest, I'd rather go with the current respawn in the nearest hospital.   While the penalty time
may end up being the same as traveling from the hospital to the mission door - the "feel" is that you're making
me sit around doing nothing twiddling my thumbs.  I'd rather spend that time actually doing something
( i.e. flying, superspeeding, whatever )  Penalty boxes will annoy the userbase.

I actually found myself thinking about this while playing CO recently. It felt cheap respawning at the mission enterance. Inspiration strategy, in CoX, was an important part of mission planning... especially the awakens. There was nothing quite like popping an awaken and hoping I wasn't too close to draw aggro while I took a knee. Having to travel back from the hospital not only fit into the story, but it was sometimes more penalty than the xp debt. Some of my most memorable experiences were in the Hollows running around huge groups of trolls and CoT to get to a mission enterance. IMHO, it was an essential part of the CoX experience.

[Golden Girl]

Either the new way GG is proposing or the old hospital respawning way, I feel the time penalty to be a good thing. Even with XP penalty it was annoying enough in CoH when you ended up with an idiot in a TF that tended to get the whole team killed over and over so, a few seconds to calm down some people after death will be welcome.

That's pretty much what we're aiming for with the downtime penalty.

[Golden Girl]

To be honest, I'd rather go with the current respawn in the nearest hospital.   While the penalty time
may end up being the same as traveling from the hospital to the mission door - the "feel" is that you're making
me sit around doing nothing twiddling my thumbs.  I'd rather spend that time actually doing something
( i.e. flying, superspeeding, whatever )  Penalty boxes will annoy the userbase.

One of our general design aims is to reduce the number of loading screens a player encounters during a play session - we're designing a game for a community who had computers that could run a game that started development over 10 years ago, which is a huge gap of time in computer tech terms. We're doing everything that we can to make sure that the minimum requirements are as close as possible to something a CoH player could run on a lower end machine, and reducing loading screens is one of the things we're doing to help achieve this aim.

I also hope we arent going to be losing the self res inspirations.

We have a system of temporary boosts in place that will give a somewhat similar effect to CoH's Inspirations.

[cybermitheral]

I agree the CoH style of Hospital rezzing was a pain as if you died on an instanced mission you went through 2/3 loading screens:
1) Res in the Hospital
2) Exit hospital and load the 'zone'
3) Get to mission door and load the mission

If there was an outdoor "sick bay" you only had 2 loading screens. And I think this is the best way forward. All "res points" are not inside a building (unless a specific mission has it in the story). I res at the front door and there is a "pharmacy" or vending machine for Insps that I click on.

[PSI-on]

lol, I love the idea of picking up the inspirations, boosts, or whatever at a vending machine. That's a crazy cool idea. I always wanted more little modern stuff like that. Maybe a fast food resturant chain I would see in each zone too. Either it's just for show and I can buy a "meal" there, that's just a little boost Fake of course, unless you wanted to leave room to change the signs later for product placement. OH, speaking of which, let me throw this in there.

C. I don't mind product placement at all, IF IT'S DONE RIGHT. Don't just throw up a Nike shoe on a billboard and call it a day, make it feel super. More importantly, don't advertise to me, be clever. I miss the old days of advertisement where they researched the product, the audience, and created something clever for them that would be appealing. You only really see work like that in old episodes of Bewitched....and that was fake. The point? Do not advertise Gaderaid to ME, I am not here and I don't want to be called to. My character is here, advertise to him. Or better yet, to the Citizens.

"You may not have powers, but with Gaderaid you'll feel super." Something like that, or bother to use models or themes from the game itself. If you go about it like you're trying to sell it to the game WORLD instead of the player, it becomes infinitely more interesting, palatable, and clever things stick with you longer and you'll find yourself liking the product, the producer, and telling everyone you talk to about it, instead of just giving negative feedback about it to your gaming friends. If this is too hard for the company to do, I (as the game making company) might ask whenever this came up for the art department (or someone on staff) to take whatever the ad is and make it fit the world, see if they like it, explain why the change, and really I would have made this sort of thing a requirement in the contract from the get go. Either it fits our world or never mind.

I agree the CoH style of Hospital rezzing was a pain as if you died on an instanced mission you went through 2/3 loading screens:
1) Res in the Hospital
2) Exit hospital and load the 'zone'
3) Get to mission door and load the mission

If there was an outdoor "sick bay" you only had 2 loading screens. And I think this is the best way forward. All "res points" are not inside a building (unless a specific mission has it in the story). I res at the front door and there is a "pharmacy" or vending machine for Insps that I click on.

[GamingGlen]

2.  Reward Grouping -  pick up groups are virtually non-existant in most recent games I've played for normal content. I've always loved PUGs in that you meet new people and the experience ( good or bad ) is always different vs always playing with a static group of friend from your guild.CoH did an excellent job of this and I hope the successor does the same.

No.   

So you are saying "reward ME for MY play style" and punish those who like to solo?

I like to solo.  So why should I be punished for it?   Why should I have to team with a bunch of yahoos, no matter how good or friendly they are, and/or forced to play with trolls and elitists, to get the best rewards?

Teaming with good players and friends should be the reward itself.

[cybermitheral]

Reward = The bigger the group the bigger the number of mobs meaning more XP and chance for drops.

[Nightmarer]

The chance for drops in groups seems a delicate subject to balance. Since the new difficulty level changes, CoH penalized the drop chance for groups, the more people, the less chance for a drop so I'd like to see some balance, neither soloing nor teaming playstyles should be punished.

[JaguarX]

neither soloing nor teaming playstyles should be punished.

yup.

[GamingGlen]

neither soloing nor teaming playstyles should be punished.

yup.

yup 2

[dwturducken]

City of Heroes had bonuses for larger groups, like getting an arch villain instead of an elite boss. I know that XP came faster in groups, but everything moved faster, too. It was still very enjoyable solo, and that was how I spent most of my time.

[Nightmarer]

City of Heroes had bonuses for larger groups, like getting an arch villain instead of an elite boss. I know that XP came faster in groups, but everything moved faster, too.

Said bonuses were lost with the new difficulties, you could be solo or with a couple friends and get exactly same number of enemies and an AV exactly as if you were in a full 8 people team.

Also, the larger the team, the less XP you got since, XP per foe decreased per team member to keep it balanced since the more people on team, more enemies to be fought. For some reason, thar decreasing of XP per team member balance remained untouched so the most XP you could get was on a x8 setting for a soloer.

Technically, a full team would take much less time clearing a mission than a x8 soloer, that I found to be true once you got everyone on team inside the mission and ready to go, the difficult task was reaching that point, we've all been there I guess, a couple people leaving so taking a few moments to get replacements, going to trainer to lvl up, bio breaks... all in all, since the difficulty level changes, teaming was punished in both XP and drops except for characters who had trouble soloing while it greatly rewarded playing alone for easy soloing characters and that's what I meant to be avoided on my previous post.

[Golden Girl]

HaV is being designed to offer a similar solo and team experience to the one found in CoH - neither type of play will be better/worse than the other.

[dwturducken]

I, for one, found the team experience "better" because of the social aspect, and that doesn't appear to be a problem, no matter which successor game we're talking about.

[silvers1]

No.   

So you are saying "reward ME for MY play style" and punish those who like to solo?

I like to solo.  So why should I be punished for it?   Why should I have to team with a bunch of yahoos, no matter how good or friendly they are, and/or forced to play with trolls and elitists, to get the best rewards?

Teaming with good players and friends should be the reward itself.

No, that's not what I said at all.  I want a similar experience to CoH, where grouping resulted in synergies of powers and hence mowing through mobs faster.   I agree, soloing should be enjoyable - but I dont want something like GW2 or Neverwinter, where groups never happen except for specific dungeons.

[JaguarX]

Said bonuses were lost with the new difficulties, you could be solo or with a couple friends and get exactly same number of enemies and an AV exactly as if you were in a full 8 people team.

Also, the larger the team, the less XP you got since, XP per foe decreased per team member to keep it balanced since the more people on team, more enemies to be fought. For some reason, thar decreasing of XP per team member balance remained untouched so the most XP you could get was on a x8 setting for a soloer.

Technically, a full team would take much less time clearing a mission than a x8 soloer, that I found to be true once you got everyone on team inside the mission and ready to go, the difficult task was reaching that point, we've all been there I guess, a couple people leaving so taking a few moments to get replacements, going to trainer to lvl up, bio breaks... all in all, since the difficulty level changes, teaming was punished in both XP and drops except for characters who had trouble soloing while it greatly rewarded playing alone for easy soloing characters and that's what I meant to be avoided on my previous post.

hm never looked at it that way. I always felt the average joe solo got punished.

I see, if one can steamroll X8, thye could potentially be more efficient at clearing X8 maps more than a team. But if you wasnt uber and or couldnt tackle X8, then teaming with X8 was better rewarded.

The time that it takes to form a 8 man team could be a while. While pound per pound, an 8 man team probably could run through a mission faster than a solo person on average taking X8 but then the time saved is lost with breaks, people switching going afk, this and that waiting for people to rez waiting for people to load into the map, and even the time it takes to form a team. By the time that is done a full hour could easily go by on forming the team alone and more time for the other stuff by then an half way effecient X8 solo person could be on their second or third mission before the team is finally ready to kill their first mob.

That gives me new perspective on it.

Talking about the later years I heard about.

Most of the years I played, teams had the clear advantage on rewards more than solo people.

Cant judge too much on drops as I got crap stuff solo and teaming so I wouldnt know what it was like to get the good stuff and which was better or not. Although it was easier to see when people got good stuff on a team compared to solo. A few people get and of course announce thye got 100 million dollar item. Then of course the rest is probably thinking "Alright, we should get something soon." Nope, again the same few get more the good stuff again.

I think there should be a bit more round robin thing. If someone got a very rare drop, then they shouldnt get another until the rest of the team at least got one instead of one or two people walking away with half billion or more worth of stuff and the rest walking away with stuff that is not even worth anything. That is one aspect of teaming I didnt enjoy much. It might as well been a greed system as far as I was concerned because the same people got the good stuff anyways. And being on the team means were were doing the same task same work same amount of time except a few got paid way more while other got crap. "oh wow, just what I needed, another worthless Pacing the Turtle. Well there should be badge for collecting 100 of them."

[cybermitheral]

I understand the feeling of seeing someone on an ITF getting 4 purples in a single run and the rest of the team getting none. Even when I got multiple good drops and the rest got none I felt bad like I was being greedy.

I would like to see however the Mission Bosses (not just boss class enemies) have a guaranteed drop for ALL members of the team. This would range from a Class A (Top Tier) to Class Z+1 (2nd bottom tier) item. This way everyone gets SOMETHING but you dont end up with the 'basic reward'. This still allows randomness, and yes could result in a middle-class reward that is worth less than a bottom-class item on the Auction House, but thats not the games fault.

[PSI-on]

Totally agree here. It always bothered me that if I went on that trial and fought Maelstrom, that he might not drop one of his pistols at all, but if he DID, he'd only drop it for one person, not all. I can imagine how tough he was and how hard everyone worked to win, only to have only one person get something worthwhile out of it.

I understand the feeling of seeing someone on an ITF getting 4 purples in a single run and the rest of the team getting none. Even when I got multiple good drops and the rest got none I felt bad like I was being greedy.

I would like to see however the Mission Bosses (not just boss class enemies) have a guaranteed drop for ALL members of the team. This would range from a Class A (Top Tier) to Class Z+1 (2nd bottom tier) item. This way everyone gets SOMETHING but you dont end up with the 'basic reward'. This still allows randomness, and yes could result in a middle-class reward that is worth less than a bottom-class item on the Auction House, but thats not the games fault.

[Nightmarer]

Hmm, tough one, I personally don't see randomness a problem at all, in fact, I think it's best solution. I of course prefer to be the one who gets a "Luck of the gambler 7.5% recharge" and all that but the great thing about CoH was that even if I didn't get it, I could go to the AH and purchase it because not having the "binds on pick up" and "binds on equip" items was one of the best decisions in a MMO.

Between I9 and I13, Ah prices were reasonable, heck, I remember purchasing said Luck of the gambler recipes for 1.5 milion inf, unfortunately, with the launch of I13 and Synapse's infamous Reward Merits, AH prices went bonkers and never recovered.

Can't blame Synapse, theorically, it was a master movement, he screwed up the game and made a living out of monitoring his mess, in fact, it was even reinforced with new kinds of currencies, merits, tickets, heck, at some stage I was expecting Monopoly notes to be a CoH valid currency.

Anyway, sorry for drifting, point is, random drops are perfectly acceptable providing everything can be bought in AH while keeping AH prices and game currencies under control.-

[silvers1]

I think there needs to be a balance regarding drops.
First of all, if you make it a guaranteed drop on defeating the boss, then people will play the TF once, get their uber drop, then never return.
There needs to be some reason to repeat the TF, or it will become an unused area of the system.

I like the way CoH had it, where drops were known only to the recipient.  Nothing to prevent the person from announcing it, of course,
but still no reason to foster instant resentment on receiving that nice drop.

Perhaps the way Neverwinter has it (for dungeons/TFs):
-  You always get something at the end - may not be the uber item, but you do get something as a reward
-  You have a small chance to get that really nice item

[PSI-on]

To be fair, I would hope that wouldn't be the only reason for a TF. In my example, maelstrom's pistols, the point of doing it was it was an iTrial which you needed to do to get the stuff you needed to lvl up and unlock incarnate slots. The pistols were just a little bonus that was hard to get. I suppose it all depends on how it's handled. I'd prefer that even if it was a guaranteed drop that it didn't BIND, so you could still sell and trade it, and if it worked like CoX then it wouldn't hurt to pick up multiple since each character would need to unlock it, not just the account. If it worked like Champions then I could see getting it every time to be a problem since the only people who would buy it then were low lvl's who couldn't do the mission yet. If it had to be random, I'd just hope the random chance would be fair. Fair enough I didn't have to do it thousands of times before I got whatever or force me to pay crazy prices on the AH, but not be so easy that they were as meaningless and worthless as those Purple Gun Tommy Guns seem to be in CO. <_< I just want a fair and reasonable chance at something without being forced to do the same content until I'm sick of it or the game itself (like STO makes me feel) or be forced to grind for the cash to get in from other players. I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm very tired of grinding and farming (unless we're talking about Harvest Moon here) in games.

[Golden Girl]

I like the way CoH had it, where drops were known only to the recipient.  Nothing to prevent the person from announcing it, of course,
but still no reason to foster instant resentment on receiving that nice drop.

Originally, it was going to be announced in the system chat - but they quickly dropped that idea

[Aggelakis]

Originally, it was going to be announced in the system chat - but they quickly dropped that idea

Ugh. I was in that beta. How hard and loud I pushed for that removal. I think I was probably leading the pitchforks-and-torches mob that time. :x

[Golden Girl]

Ugh. I was in that beta. How hard and loud I pushed for that removal. I think I was probably leading the pitchforks-and-torches mob that time. :x

It was almost like they were trolling the players

[Aggelakis]

It was an all-or-nothing thing too, they were going to announce everything - recipes, salvage, TO/DO/SOs, inspirations....they had no way (or didn't want to code a way) to turn it on selectively, so I was going to know that my teammates got a breakfree from that dude. I was gonna know my lowbie sidekick got a Training accuracy from that other dude. I mean really, the rewards announcements scroll by so fast already, it was going to turn that channel into nothing but spam. I don't F'ing care that Joe Bob Punchyman got an Invention: Confuse Duration! I DON'T CARE!!! lol

[Golden Girl]

I think that they simply thought that as players had been asking to be able to see the numbers and stats behind the powers for so long, they'd probably want to see these as well.

[PSI-on]

Then I'm guessing it's safe to say that this could be added to the list of things we don't want to see in a new CoH type of game? Makes you wonder why Cryptic thought it would be a good idea in their new games.

It was an all-or-nothing thing too, they were going to announce everything - recipes, salvage, TO/DO/SOs, inspirations....they had no way (or didn't want to code a way) to turn it on selectively, so I was going to know that my teammates got a breakfree from that dude. I was gonna know my lowbie sidekick got a Training accuracy from that other dude. I mean really, the rewards announcements scroll by so fast already, it was going to turn that channel into nothing but spam. I don't F'ing care that Joe Bob Punchyman got an Invention: Confuse Duration! I DON'T CARE!!! lol

[cybermitheral]

I wasn't suggesting that EVERYONE gets a Tier1 drop on defeating the end boss (ie: Lord Recluse) rather that everyone is guaranteed a drop of some kind above the basic drop level. This could result in a purple drop, a LotG +7.5% or a Multi-Strike. It could be an Enhanced Platinum (T1) or Tier 2 crafting material. Etc.

For bosses with unique rewards then someONE should get it on defeat. If you run the iTrial twice and get it twice in a row then you are lucky. Others will still get SOMETHING on h is defeat.

[PSI-on]

That would be good enough for me too. Sounds a bit more balanced but fair than what CoH sometimes had and what I proposed, a good middle ground, I think.

I wasn't suggesting that EVERYONE gets a Tier1 drop on defeating the end boss (ie: Lord Recluse) rather that everyone is guaranteed a drop of some kind above the basic drop level. This could result in a purple drop, a LotG +7.5% or a Multi-Strike. It could be an Enhanced Platinum (T1) or Tier 2 crafting material. Etc.

For bosses with unique rewards then someONE should get it on defeat. If you run the iTrial twice and get it twice in a row then you are lucky. Others will still get SOMETHING on h is defeat.

[dragonhawk]

While I like the archtype/class system in MMOs and the one in CoH in particular, I do feel there were some issues that should be fixed if it is ever used again.  As well as a few other game mechanic changes that CoH had.

Tanks/Brutes:  Brutes made tanks completely irrelevant in CoH, they could take almost as much damage and do alot more dps.  My solution is combine the tanka nd brute archtype into one and include a stance system.  In def stance (tank) damage goes down but resistance cap goes up to 90%, and in offense (brute) damage goes up while the resistance cap drops down to around 60%.  Include a cooldown on the stance swap (say around 1 min) so you cant just spam stance swapping.

I would also make some changes to tanks/brutes vs scrappers/stalkers.  Tanks should be resistance based with lower defense.  Scrappers should have their defenses based on avoidance.  In comics tanks take the hit for the team, they stand in front of the plasma cannon and block the shot because it would kill everyone else on the team.  Scrappers on the other hand dodge attacks (or heal through them).  Virtually all the scrappers from Batman to Spiderman avoid hits and dont take them.  This should be reflected in the game where the power sets are avoidance based and scrappers have a much lower resistance cap than they did in CoH (maybe around 30%-40%).

Controllers/Defenders:  Again controllers made defenders obsolete, since they had had defender secondary abilities for secondary powers and brought lockdowns/pets to the team which more than made up for the lower heals/buffs/debuffs.  My solution would be eliminate controllers as an archtype and divide control duties/powers into dominators and defenders/corruptors.  Have dominators have stronger AoE cc for dealing with trash, but weaker single target heals.  Defenders should have strong single target cc with few or none AoE cc.  Combine that with heals and buffs/debuffs and it would make defenders/corruptors ideal support for boss/AV fights.  I would also change cc in the game so that mobs are not permanently locked down.  Make it so that as you damage a mob it weakens the cc so that at say 40% health they would break out of the cc.  Bosses and AVs would have their own mechanics for dealing with cc.  As far as the controller pets go I would move them to the mastermind AT, adding some power sets based on elemental type pets.

Blasters:  Aside from needing to be king of ranged dps and even dps in general, the biggest change I would do would be to their nukes.  Nukes should not completely drain their energy and all of them should be ranged.  The idea that the squishiest AT int he game should run into the middle of 10 mods and fire off their nuke was silly, particularly when it was in the ranged damage power set.  About half the blaster power sets had a ranged nuke and they should have all had it make to ranged.  The other thing I would do would be to allow blasters to change their nuke from an AoE to a single target when dealing with a boss/AV.  It could be like a tanks stance where once swapped to single target mode the nuke would do increased damage to one target and when dealing with trash could be in AoE mode to take out packs of mobs.

Super Groups:  Make SGs relevant, there wasnt really anything that made an SG relevant in CoH.  In the future there should be missions and TFs that only an SG can access.  I would not have them drop loot that you cant get in pug TFs, but have the drop rates be much better.  I would also make the fights tougher with the idea that it would be a group of people with some kind of VioP system in place to coordinate the fights.

Vaults:  Allow players to store anything in their vault/bank.  The idea that I have to start my own SG just so I had a place to store my IO recipes/enhancements, because I couldnt put them in my vault was stupid.  Just do a bank system like every other mmo that lets you put whatever you want in your bank.

[cybermitheral]

Tanks weren't just meant to be Themed on big large sacks of HP, but also means of aggro management
There is no reason that Spider Man couldn't be an Agile Tank. he taunts a hell of a lot and is frustratingly hard to hit.

Resistance was ignore % of damage but still getting hurt.
Defence was ignoring damage through avoidance or deflection (Shield Defence) or a barrier that if you got through hit for almost full damage (like Energy Aura).
Forcing Tanks to ONLY use Res and Scrappers to ONLY use Def is too limiting to not only concept but also build design.

Tanks vs Brutes
Yes Brutes could become WAY to tough and overlapped Tanks way to easily, especially with IO's for normal and +1/+2 even +3 Difficulty. Some of my IO'd Brutes could even Tank at +4 depending on the Powersets and enemies (Inv and Psi enemies don't mix no matter what lol).
CityOfTitans (www.CityOfTitans.com) will have both Tanks (called Bulwarks) and Brutes/Scrappers (called Gladiators), along with the other Class types (Ranged/Support/Control/etc), but will also allow you to chose your own Mastery (or Inherent using CoH-speak), so if I want to use a Rage-style mechanic I can, or a +X% to Crit I can, or a .....
They are also having each Class its own Protection (my term) caps with Bulwarks at the top by a significant margin. So there is no Brute/Scrapper with different HP/Def values (unless a Mastery allows for one?) and even if there is the difference between what a Bulwark can tank and what a Glad can Tank will be very different.

Come on over the the CoT forums, the game is in pre-alpha/design stage. The water is cool, the food is hot and the sunrise is just starting to shine over the horizon of the great future that is CoT

[Felderburg]

Super Groups:  Make SGs relevant, there wasnt really anything that made an SG relevant in CoH.  In the future there should be missions and TFs that only an SG can access.  I would not have them drop loot that you cant get in pug TFs, but have the drop rates be much better.  I would also make the fights tougher with the idea that it would be a group of people with some kind of VioP [sic] system in place to coordinate the fights.

There was some stuff planned and in some cases implemented, like PvP base raids and the Cathedral of Pain Trial. But even if there's not SG-specific content, being in a group with like-minded people is "relevance" enough, isn't it? Plus, you don't want to lock people who want to play solo out of some content, just because they don't particularly want to join an SG.

The idea that the squishiest AT int he game should run into the middle of 10 mods and fire off their nuke was silly, particularly when it was in the ranged damage power set.

Silly? Maaaaaybe. Fun? Heck yes! Although you do raise a good point about the highest tier of a ranged power set requiring moving in to melee distance.

[DreadCanary]

One opportunity for customization that I always thought CoX missed was simply doing away with archetypes entirely.  What if, during character creation, a player picked two power sets of different types and then picked a mastery.  You want melee and ranged damage with no defense?  Sure.  You want team defense and self defense?  Well you'll be great in groups.
I'm sure people would manage to build super powerful characters and others would manage nearly unviable ones.  But I also think the CoX community would love one more way to build a unique character.

[silvers1]

One opportunity for customization that I always thought CoX missed was simply doing away with archetypes entirely.  What if, during character creation, a player picked two power sets of different types and then picked a mastery.  You want melee and ranged damage with no defense?  Sure.  You want team defense and self defense?  Well you'll be great in groups.
I'm sure people would manage to build super powerful characters and others would manage nearly unviable ones.  But I also think the CoX community would love one more way to build a unique character.

From past posts I've read, this is pretty close to what they originally tried during early alpha.  And it failed miserably. 

The great thing about the primary/secondary powerset design is that it gave a good framework for balancing powersets, and kept players from creating grossly overpowered or severely gimped toons.

[PartyKake]

If you haven't already, I recommend that you check out FireFall and see how it's structured.

It has some awesome components that would be welcome in any MMO.

One that is currently a shadow of its former self is the chosen taking over watchtowers in Coral Forest. Previously, the primary enemy of the game would take over a watchtower, and then use that as a sort of base to launch assaults on nearby watchtowers and outposts, until a huge swath of the game map was red. (the in game map displays chosen controlled areas as red so that you know to head there).

The game is, however, filled to the brim with well-done dynamic events.

currently you have to stay within a zone that's within 5 levels of you or you get less xp - which is a bummer because if you're skilled enough, you could actually handle stuff way higher level than you. That's because of a group of exploits that they had to deal with right after launch. I suspect that it's still a band-aid solution and it'll get lifted at some point. I could be wrong.

If you're a game designer though, it's definitely worth your time. Firefall was, after all, the first game to boast that there would be a completely free to play, triple-A title in the near future (a promise made several years back). They might not be the first but they've finally launched.

[Aggelakis]

I don't generally like first-person or third-person shooters, and Firefall is pretty flippin' awesome. I love thumping. I barely do anything else than thumping. Probably 75% of my play time is thumping. I love that it gets marked on the map for everyone, and eventually you have a group of strangers defending the thumper against the bug/Chosen onslaught. LOL