Author Topic: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed  (Read 24534 times)

Nightwatch

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City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« on: October 07, 2013, 09:25:16 PM »
There's clearly a long road to go before we will be playing any spiritual successor but so pleased to see the City Of Heroes Kickstarterbreak through its target figure ($320,000) today!  Only 5 days into the pledge period!  Congratulations to the Missing Worlds team!  Congratulations to all pledgers (including me)!

Will be committing more funds as well to Heroes & Villains when needed.  Look forward to playing both City of Titans and H&V.

Wonder if NCSoft is watching the actions of the great community they shat on?

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 10:10:09 PM »

Wonder if NCSoft is watching the actions of the great community they shat on?

Probably not.

It's probably business as usual for them.

saipaman

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 11:00:30 PM »
I expect another blizzard of news now that "City of Titans" has reached it's funding goal.

The name 'City of Heroes' will not be erased.

Angel Phoenix77

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 03:17:16 PM »
Probably not.

It's probably business as usual for them.
yep wondering which game no longer fits into their plans for the future
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

dwturducken

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 03:50:10 PM »
I know that I'm still watching all three projects. I'm excited to see what "pre-alpha" means over on Valiance, too. It seems like all the attention is on TPP, ATM, but that's just because it's "fund drive time." Once Kickstarter is over, and they start into the actual work with the new toys it's paying for, I'm sure there will be lulls. (Not to be confused with "Lulz!")

I would have to go back and look, but I thought part of H&V's goals was to use open source software up until they absolutely had to go proprietary. That even played into the choice of game engine, as I recall. Again, I would have to go back and look through the older posts, but that's how my rapidly deteriorating memory has it. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Illusionss

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2013, 06:40:01 PM »
yep wondering which game no longer fits into their plans for the future

*snerk*

I would not doubt it for a minute.

downix

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 08:21:09 PM »
I know that I'm still watching all three projects. I'm excited to see what "pre-alpha" means over on Valiance, too. It seems like all the attention is on TPP, ATM, but that's just because it's "fund drive time." Once Kickstarter is over, and they start into the actual work with the new toys it's paying for, I'm sure there will be lulls. (Not to be confused with "Lulz!")

I would have to go back and look, but I thought part of H&V's goals was to use open source software up until they absolutely had to go proprietary. That even played into the choice of game engine, as I recall. Again, I would have to go back and look through the older posts, but that's how my rapidly deteriorating memory has it. :)
Nope, their game engine is completely closed-source. (Hero Engine)

dwturducken

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 09:59:20 PM »
See? Next, I'll be calling my kids by the wrong name when they're acting up! :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

silvers1

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2013, 10:14:35 PM »

The one thing that worries me ... is that NCSoft may have their army of lawyers ready to go the moment any of these games see the light of day.
If any element of the game mirrors CoH, they could have basis to bring a lawsuit.

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JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2013, 10:43:05 PM »
The one thing that worries me ... is that NCSoft may have their army of lawyers ready to go the moment any of these games see the light of day.
If any element of the game mirrors CoH, they could have basis to bring a lawsuit.

Well I'm sure MWM have a volunteer legal team hanging about. :p

Seriously though, I think they did mention contacting legal specialist for an as needed basis and have or rather will have money set aside for that.

Artillerie

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2013, 11:34:46 PM »
The one thing that worries me ... is that NCSoft may have their army of lawyers ready to go the moment any of these games see the light of day.
If any element of the game mirrors CoH, they could have basis to bring a lawsuit.

If this were to ever happen (no offense but i doubt it), i'm sure that the righteous indignation that the CoH community has shown would swiftly turn into righteous fury :) Plus all of the projects are being very careful to give no cause for any kind of legitimate legal action.

Segev

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 11:58:24 PM »
I just wanted to come in here and say to everybody who's contributed, whether money, time, or just well-wishings, thank you. We cannot do this without you, and you're demonstrating exactly why we believe this can - and will - succeed.

We've hit our goal financially. Now, I would love to see us explode in backer count. Not that getting more money isn't nice, but this is an enterprise that needs a large, as well as a dedicated, audience! Please make sure you spread the word to anybody who might even possibly be interested in playing. Ask them to donate even as little as $5, and maybe take 5 min. to let us know how much they would spend if there was an actual game to spend money on. I say "if" because that's what it will be from many people's perspective. I know we all know that's really code for "when."

I would absolutely love to see 10,000+ backers by the end of this. It's no longer about the dollar amounts, but about the dedication just to say, "I'm interested enough to throw a token your way, just to show that I'm here, waiting for this product."

The bigger that number, the more clout we have when we approach potential partners, sponsors, and others who might help us make this game all the more successful while keeping the price-to-play as low as possible. This isn't marketing jargon or "PBS wants you to give money," but rather simple math: the more we can show that we have a large audience, the more we will impress those who care about large audiences and the more control we can exert in any business relationships into which we enter.

So please, spread the word, and keep spreading it! While we love and appreciate large donations, we're looking for the hordes of small ones, just to show people are out there and willing to play when it comes out!

And again: Thank you all so very, very much!

chasearcanum

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2013, 05:22:14 PM »
The one thing that worries me ... is that NCSoft may have their army of lawyers ready to go the moment any of these games see the light of day.
If any element of the game mirrors CoH, they could have basis to bring a lawsuit.
It isn't just NCSoft you have to worry about.  Game patents are all over the place these days.  Not only are there patent trolls  (remember NCSoft (and blizzard) were both sued by Worlds, INC claiming that they held the patent for 3d virtual chat) but other game companies usually hold other game companies at bay by threatening to fire back with their own patent arsenal.  A new upstart with no patents to threaten back with may have very dangerous waters to navigate.

saipaman

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 04:51:45 AM »
All the more reason to license a game engine.  Let the game engine maker fight the patent war.

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2013, 05:41:58 AM »
speaking of license.

When the CoT hits live, is the purchase of the game an actual ownership purchase of the game for the player or is it the usual leasing and temporary license of the game like the rest of the MMOs out there?

Sugoi

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2013, 09:39:56 AM »
While we love and appreciate large donations, we're looking for the hordes of small ones, just to show people are out there and willing to play when it comes out!

Segev, is there any chance of allowing individuals to have an amount of cash deducted monthly directly to the company funds? ($5, 10, 15 or more, think of it as an advance subscription fee / slush fund) 

Let the individual's slush fund pile up [tied to their Global Account?] and be used directly for development of the game, and credit the advance subscribers with a free month of game play for each $15 - $20 in the slush fund (whatever the monthly fee ends up being) when the game goes live.   It seems to me that this would be a way to provide the company with an accessible fund flow while undergoing development, and give the contributor a way to assist the project, and getting an equal return on VIP status.

Another option tied in with the slush fund could be a Lifetime Subscription to the game when it reaches a certain level or beyond.

Just some ideas to consider, I'd personally like to thank all who are willing to support the rebirth of our home away from home, either thru their direct skills and/or their financial contributions to the project.

Sugoi

Mandrake

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2013, 04:23:39 PM »
speaking of license.

When the CoT hits live, is the purchase of the game an actual ownership purchase of the game for the player or is it the usual leasing and temporary license of the game like the rest of the MMOs out there?

They went over that on the radio show. Nothing in writing yet, but basically you are buying a copy of the game... it is a monthly license until such time as the game shutters and it will be released to you as a 64(ish) person, multiplayer standalone. Something about it will be a hardcoded flag they would be able to patch through and release if such an event were to happen.

So it would be in essence an ownership, but there has to be some sort of legal mumbo jumbo in their so nobody is disillusioned about it being a subscription / cashshop unless it actually closes.

That is *my* understanding (not to be confused with certainty :) ) from the conversation details and interaction with community on the radio show. Probably could ask for absolute confirmation on CoT forums. They are pretty good about answering questions.

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2013, 04:55:02 PM »
They went over that on the radio show. Nothing in writing yet, but basically you are buying a copy of the game... it is a monthly license until such time as the game shutters and it will be released to you as a 64(ish) person, multiplayer standalone. Something about it will be a hardcoded flag they would be able to patch through and release if such an event were to happen.

So it would be in essence an ownership, but there has to be some sort of legal mumbo jumbo in their so nobody is disillusioned about it being a subscription / cashshop unless it actually closes.

That is *my* understanding (not to be confused with certainty :) ) from the conversation details and interaction with community on the radio show. Probably could ask for absolute confirmation on CoT forums. They are pretty good about answering questions.
Ah I see. Didn't see or hear the radio thing.

Sounds good. But I assume that means they are actually, as they build, keeping in mind a stand alone version meaning solo player version, and not trying to tie all the code in for only teaming and then in the end realize they cant make a standalone version because they didn't build it into the game at all with the features.


Either way, hopefully they made the legal mumbo jumbo clear. As prior, most people thought they were purchasing ownership of a game when in actuality they are merely paying "rent" even though it says so in the EULAs. I guess it just needs to be a bit more clearer in bold red letters of the purchase type, a section that cant click accept until it is actually read.

Mandrake

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2013, 08:05:56 PM »
Yeah the sad part is - the way they were talking it is an inherent part of any engine. That is to say you pretty much have to have the ability to kick off a 'server' from anywhere for testing purposes within the development group since you may not always have access to the server (or want to be live). Whether it be maintenance or just not having access to the internet, but you still need to crack away at a project, you have to be able to be in-world to check your work without dealing with constantly logging in, connecting to remote servers, bogging down your system with a complete server instance, etc.

So from what I  understood - this is already built into the Unreal engine right off the bat. It will be kept within the game all throughout the build process and just 'switched off' as it were in the public client. Unless the unthinkable happens, and then it will be 'switched on' and everyone given the 'dev version'.

It also means that from what they discussed, there was no reason for NCSoft not to release a standalone and/or multiplayer version. It is possible that since it was a ground-up engine they did not allow for this, but highly unlikely. No way to know of course, but it does stand to reason. Grf.

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 08:50:32 PM »
Yeah the sad part is - the way they were talking it is an inherent part of any engine. That is to say you pretty much have to have the ability to kick off a 'server' from anywhere for testing purposes within the development group since you may not always have access to the server (or want to be live). Whether it be maintenance or just not having access to the internet, but you still need to crack away at a project, you have to be able to be in-world to check your work without dealing with constantly logging in, connecting to remote servers, bogging down your system with a complete server instance, etc.

So from what I  understood - this is already built into the Unreal engine right off the bat. It will be kept within the game all throughout the build process and just 'switched off' as it were in the public client. Unless the unthinkable happens, and then it will be 'switched on' and everyone given the 'dev version'.

It also means that from what they discussed, there was no reason for NCSoft not to release a standalone and/or multiplayer version. It is possible that since it was a ground-up engine they did not allow for this, but highly unlikely. No way to know of course, but it does stand to reason. Grf.

yeah. I don't think NCSOFT thought about stand alone version when the game was built especially since it was started in 2011 time period when MMO strictly meant online online online pull the plug it's the end of it. StarCraft was stand alone and online and pre dated COX but many people don't consider that game an MMO.

 And quite frankly without over haul of a lot of the features, especially the ones added later, it wouldn't work too well as a stand alone game unless there was some scaling/drop rate increase to be done, which should have been done while the game was live (i.e TF/SF, the incarnate stuff, the trials), and basically kill the market and up the drop rate to a lot of stuff. Lot of stuff I seen on the market never seen anyone personally get as a drop and some stuff never been on the market that I know of due to high demand use and lack of drop rate. But I guess that wouldn't be an issue if they released it with all the dev options unlocked too. 

But it sounds good they are going that route so it can never die. But they must keep in mind to not make everything team focused or else ya end up with a stand alone game that is unplayable and useless without a bunch of friends and buddies hanging about. 

Segev

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 12:36:40 PM »
We have been exploring options for allowing people to participate financially post-Kickstarter. I don't think anything like the sort of "escrow account" that was suggested earlier in this thread has come up, and I'm not going to make any official announcements in this thread, but we do have some ideas on this, and we intend to give as much real value for any such contributions as possible.

Depending on just how well the "add ons" for swag sell, we are likely to be working to open a swag store as one such means. No promises (I have not been connected to that side of things lately, so I don't know with the certainty that I would want before making any such promises just how far along that is; last I heard, we expected the transition from "meeting swag distribution requirements for KS" to "open online store" to be more than feasible), but it is quite likely, as it will be a sort-of low-hanging-fruit that does give real value for backing. If you're interested in any of the swag on the KS, please do buy it through backing us there. Not only will that likely be delivered before we get a store up and running (and, if not, it'll be the first things we deliver after doing so), but each new backer increases our "backers" count, so if you're not already backing us but want swag, please buy it that way. More backers translates to a stronger position for our business department when they go to do their job: it proves we have the customer base to truly make this profitable. (What we have already - and what we're immensely thankful for - is proof that our audience is devoted. And that, too, is powerful leverage. But it's a slam dunk if we can prove that it is also very large, because a large base can sustain what can only happen in bursts from a devoted one. And steady stability is the holy grail of the kind of business with which WE want to do business. The kind that will help this be a long-term endeavor that serves its customers for many many years.)

We absolutely intend for there to be means for players to continue playing the game in the event of and after a shut-down. Not that we have any intention of shutting down if it keeps supporting itself! But should it happen for any reason beyond our control, we fully intend for players to be able to keep playing, with or without MWM. The exact method for that is not set in stone, but the rough idea is as discussed on the radio show. It would take something truly monumental for the game to go live and then be shut down in a way that the players could not continue using what had already been produced.

If you want more details that are a little firmer, I recommend finding a recording of the radio interview.

You guys are awesome, and if I seem a bit rambling, it's just because I can't express my awe and gratitude to see this community still going strong like this, and am a bit overwhelmed and humbled by the support this effort is getting. Good work, everybody!

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 03:51:20 PM »
We have been exploring options for allowing people to participate financially post-Kickstarter. I don't think anything like the sort of "escrow account" that was suggested earlier in this thread has come up, and I'm not going to make any official announcements in this thread, but we do have some ideas on this, and we intend to give as much real value for any such contributions as possible.

Depending on just how well the "add ons" for swag sell, we are likely to be working to open a swag store as one such means. No promises (I have not been connected to that side of things lately, so I don't know with the certainty that I would want before making any such promises just how far along that is; last I heard, we expected the transition from "meeting swag distribution requirements for KS" to "open online store" to be more than feasible), but it is quite likely, as it will be a sort-of low-hanging-fruit that does give real value for backing. If you're interested in any of the swag on the KS, please do buy it through backing us there. Not only will that likely be delivered before we get a store up and running (and, if not, it'll be the first things we deliver after doing so), but each new backer increases our "backers" count, so if you're not already backing us but want swag, please buy it that way. More backers translates to a stronger position for our business department when they go to do their job: it proves we have the customer base to truly make this profitable. (What we have already - and what we're immensely thankful for - is proof that our audience is devoted. And that, too, is powerful leverage. But it's a slam dunk if we can prove that it is also very large, because a large base can sustain what can only happen in bursts from a devoted one. And steady stability is the holy grail of the kind of business with which WE want to do business. The kind that will help this be a long-term endeavor that serves its customers for many many years.)

We absolutely intend for there to be means for players to continue playing the game in the event of and after a shut-down. Not that we have any intention of shutting down if it keeps supporting itself! But should it happen for any reason beyond our control, we fully intend for players to be able to keep playing, with or without MWM. The exact method for that is not set in stone, but the rough idea is as discussed on the radio show. It would take something truly monumental for the game to go live and then be shut down in a way that the players could not continue using what had already been produced.

If you want more details that are a little firmer, I recommend finding a recording of the radio interview.

You guys are awesome, and if I seem a bit rambling, it's just because I can't express my awe and gratitude to see this community still going strong like this, and am a bit overwhelmed and humbled by the support this effort is getting. Good work, everybody!

Which radio around which date and time?

Segev

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 04:26:52 PM »
Sorry, the one Doctor Tyche was referencing, which was (unless my brain's more fried than I think it is) this past Friday on Cape Radio.

I'll double-check with him to make sure I'm recalling the same one that's been referenced.

Mandrake

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 04:55:43 PM »
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/theelf/2013/10/11/save-coh-radio

I highly recommend DOWNLOADING the show. If you do, then the rest of what follows applies for sure, plus you get the extra after show content:

Timetable:

Kickstarter Discussion: 26:00
Just getting up from DownUnder Arrives ;) : 28:30
Nate / Doctor Tyche - MWM: 30:55
Dimented Kermit / Ms. Piggy (but no mention of ZModem) discussion begins: 32:00
What's the dough for: 35:00

Break For:
- Scholastic Coders Remorse Theatre by TonyV and friends - 40:00

Back to What's the Dough for: 46:30
A bit about launch stuffs: 52:00
Question - Temp Play Servers: 52:45
Licensing Discussion: 53:20
Question - Combat: 56:10
Questions Block: 56:10

Random nugget of incredibly useless information: 1:02:10

Question Plaid Add On: 1:04:05
Questions Block: 1:08
Merchandise ideas: 1:15:30
Question - Mechanics, Characters 1:23:30

Harvester Joins in - 1:31:15

In Game Economy: 1:33:10
Down with the industry! 1:43:20
WHAT IF?!?!: 1:51:28
What about Cons? 1:56:30

After Party / Server Tech Talk Starts at 2:00:00
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:01:00 PM by Krnl_Mandrake »

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 06:23:57 PM »
Good stuff. Yet still, in the what if thing and everyone can keep playing. as usual, it's about teaming and assumption that someone know someone that will pick up the game and flip the switch and run a server.

What about people that put just as much money in, but don't know people that have the server or simply may not trust private ran servers? Are they out flapping and when the game get shut down, they are not included in the math of "everyone will still be able to play?"

Segev

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2013, 06:39:17 PM »
I won't say this is gospel, but the last conversation I had about this included ideas for making it possible to "be your own server" so you can play by yourself, or even (and I admit, this is something I would like to do as a "new" project when the game is out and running) releasing actual stand-alone single-player games in the CoT setting. Note, again, that at this point I am discussing some far-off things, post-release, but I personally would like to see such stand-alones serve as potential "gateways" into the MMO proper, as well.

If there is a stand-alone game that tells a solo story, it might spend more time in the lower levels, for example. When you complete it, it allows you to log in to play with that character in the MMO proper.

Note that this is not the only "lifeboat" option on the table, and is one of the more unusual ones, with the "lifeboat" capability it would offer being more structural than a deliberate feature.

...and I fear I'm rambling. Let me put it this way: we intend that, if there's a "flip the switch" thing, the close-down procedures of the game being shut down would include sending out that last patch to anybody who logged in to get it. When they ran the updater on their launcher, as opposed to the fears our community has of having NCSoft mysteriously delete CoH from their computers, the post-shutdown patch would instead BE the flipping of that switch. If needs be, we'd be making a patch that enabled the client to access a server on your own machine.

This is not from a programmer's perspective; this is, however, one of the ways we've been looking at things.

What I hope you take away from this is that we are NOT intending to leave people out in the cold. We ARE looking at ways to make sure that everybody who's invested in the game enough to have a client on their computer can retain the ability to play the game even if MWM isn't around to support it. What the exact form this will take is has yet to be nailed down; we have a number of thoughts and ideas and our tech guys are, as time permits with the other things on their plates, investigating feasibility of each so that we settle on one that has the absolute best chance of going off without a hitch. (The last thing we want is to have this glorious plan in place, and then find out that something prevents us from making it happen for our players! This means we can't say "we're definitely doing it this way" until we know what works.)

JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2013, 06:45:05 PM »
I won't say this is gospel, but the last conversation I had about this included ideas for making it possible to "be your own server" so you can play by yourself, or even (and I admit, this is something I would like to do as a "new" project when the game is out and running) releasing actual stand-alone single-player games in the CoT setting. Note, again, that at this point I am discussing some far-off things, post-release, but I personally would like to see such stand-alones serve as potential "gateways" into the MMO proper, as well.

If there is a stand-alone game that tells a solo story, it might spend more time in the lower levels, for example. When you complete it, it allows you to log in to play with that character in the MMO proper.

Note that this is not the only "lifeboat" option on the table, and is one of the more unusual ones, with the "lifeboat" capability it would offer being more structural than a deliberate feature.

...and I fear I'm rambling. Let me put it this way: we intend that, if there's a "flip the switch" thing, the close-down procedures of the game being shut down would include sending out that last patch to anybody who logged in to get it. When they ran the updater on their launcher, as opposed to the fears our community has of having NCSoft mysteriously delete CoH from their computers, the post-shutdown patch would instead BE the flipping of that switch. If needs be, we'd be making a patch that enabled the client to access a server on your own machine.

This is not from a programmer's perspective; this is, however, one of the ways we've been looking at things.

What I hope you take away from this is that we are NOT intending to leave people out in the cold. We ARE looking at ways to make sure that everybody who's invested in the game enough to have a client on their computer can retain the ability to play the game even if MWM isn't around to support it. What the exact form this will take is has yet to be nailed down; we have a number of thoughts and ideas and our tech guys are, as time permits with the other things on their plates, investigating feasibility of each so that we settle on one that has the absolute best chance of going off without a hitch. (The last thing we want is to have this glorious plan in place, and then find out that something prevents us from making it happen for our players! This means we can't say "we're definitely doing it this way" until we know what works.)

Yeah  things change. Although I'm kind of curious of how do one find out if shutdown plan actually work without...shutdown.

Either way though, hopefully it don't come down to it about 5-9 years later and development forget to design with stand alone version in mind or worse end up tangled yarn balling the code like one particular company did...twice.

Mandrake

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2013, 06:49:10 PM »
Good stuff. Yet still, in the what if thing and everyone can keep playing. as usual, it's about teaming and assumption that someone know someone that will pick up the game and flip the switch and run a server.

What about people that put just as much money in, but don't know people that have the server or simply may not trust private ran servers? Are they out flapping and when the game get shut down, they are not included in the math of "everyone will still be able to play?"

I'm not sure I get your issue. If you have a copy of your game. You have the capability of firing it up and hopping in, playing missions, street sweeping, whatever your favorite pastime is whether someone joins you or not... what is the problem?


I don't see the math problem. Everyone is included. Those that want to spin up the server - or 'create a session' whatever - and invite people to play, and those that just fire up the game and play by themselves. I don't see the difference.

Are you wanting some sort of separately defined game that is adapted somehow so it does not have the 'Multiplayer' button or something?

I'm not trying to be difficult - I just am not grasping what it is you are wanting?

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2013, 06:57:25 PM »
All we have to do is *not* remove the headless server flag within the game engine. It may not be an option from the menu, but a command line option.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2013, 07:21:52 PM »
I'm not sure I get your issue. If you have a copy of your game. You have the capability of firing it up and hopping in, playing missions, street sweeping, whatever your favorite pastime is whether someone joins you or not... what is the problem?


I don't see the math problem. Everyone is included. Those that want to spin up the server - or 'create a session' whatever - and invite people to play, and those that just fire up the game and play by themselves. I don't see the difference.

Are you wanting some sort of separately defined game that is adapted somehow so it does not have the 'Multiplayer' button or something?

I'm not trying to be difficult - I just am not grasping what it is you are wanting?

There is no problem just a question for clarification. Originally, as it been stated the game will never die and someone will be able to pick it up and I quote from the radio "Hey I got a server over here and they can invite friends to it." yet again no mention of an actual stand alone which sounded like it would require someone running a private server to play or be part of a private server to play.

In reply to that it was replied that no one is going to be left out and it will be basically a stand alone type game, or rather that is what they are planning or hoping for nothing set in stone.


What I'm hoping for is simply if the game do go under, it don't require getting online finding a server or so and hoping that the server runner is legit and not crooked to play. AKA, it's no longer online I just load it up and play, by myself. And if I wanted to say, hop on someone server I know about I can but my entire gaming schedule not be revolving on when they are online or not. Yeah something like my own self contained mini server to play when ever I want even if it's feb 29 at 230 am on a school night I wont be slowed down in progress due to lack of people.

But looks like they are keeping people who may not have vast network of internet friends in mind too. Which is good.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2013, 10:41:34 PM »
Yeah  things change. Although I'm kind of curious of how do one find out if shutdown plan actually work without...shutdown.


That's actually pretty easy to test if you think about it... and I'm pretty sure that they will. 

For a standalone capability, they'd need to be able to create a set up like with a lot of FPS games - basically like Halo or any number of multiplayer games where one person has acts as a server and the others act as clients.  Not, an optimal solution, but workable. 

You also have to keep in mind the fact they've even put some thought into having that as a solution puts them a long step ahead of things.  Whether that's a technical feasibility or not - it's one they're considering and trying to bake into it from day one.  Not a lot of game dev teams even think consider that kind of thing, and as far as I know, no MMO does as a rule. 

It's kind of contrary to the logic of an MMO to design it with the ability to go standalone, so massive props to the guys for that.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2013, 11:04:58 PM »
That's actually pretty easy to test if you think about it... and I'm pretty sure that they will. 

For a standalone capability, they'd need to be able to create a set up like with a lot of FPS games - basically like Halo or any number of multiplayer games where one person has acts as a server and the others act as clients.  Not, an optimal solution, but workable. 

You also have to keep in mind the fact they've even put some thought into having that as a solution puts them a long step ahead of things.  Whether that's a technical feasibility or not - it's one they're considering and trying to bake into it from day one.  Not a lot of game dev teams even think consider that kind of thing, and as far as I know, no MMO does as a rule. 

It's kind of contrary to the logic of an MMO to design it with the ability to go standalone, so massive props to the guys for that.

wel contrary to the rules established by big corporations that like to hold on to the control and fantasy games of what an MMO is supposed to be.

At one point in time  MMORPG was suppose to mean fanatasy and maybe sci fi based and quests upon quest upon quest and gear that changed appearance. Well well, didn't COX break those rules with super heroes instead of fairies and elves, and gear that didn't change appearance, and more things to than simply grind.

See they set the rule that MMO supposed ot mean that you supposed to have to interact with other people because it was meant to be that in order to progress it entices them to grab more friends so they can play and thus the company makes more money as long as the ykeep the grind cycle going and keep people thinking they must log on because their guild mates need them. ANd no one questions it.   

It still can be Massive, it still can be Multiplayer, and it still can be Online if one chooses without meaning "Must team must team must team. Cant play unless interacting with people must interact must interact, must be social, the guild needs me"

If one chooses they should be able to choose to go online. StarCraft the original one was like this. You could play by yourself, or you could get online and go at it. Not sure about star craft two.

Even GTA series is getting like this, you can go online if one chooses and the online feature, it's is by definition exactly like a MMO nearly. Or you can play alone.


It's way of the future. And remember more player especially if they feel they have a choice, they will play. But for some, not everyone enjoy the constatnt prod of must be social must be social must team must team and even though they may like the game they may not partake because they feel it's a prod to be social all the time everytime. Some people want to take a break from that when playing games. Yes some people love being surrounded by people all day and get bored easily solo, but neither one have to suffer for the favor of one or the other. If one choose to team let them unhindered. If one choose to solo, let them, unhindered. More players broader audience.


Plus I'm simply tired of the same old fantasy like games find great success and riding it because they already had built in fans for it while super hero genre continue to struggle because they are trying to play by the rules of fantasy lore instead of making their own rules and tapping into what super hero lore is really about.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2013, 02:21:42 AM »
Well, I chipped in a little bit, hope it helps.

Here's hoping my exclusive travel aura stays exclusive, unlike my pre-order travel aura for CoH.  :)

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2013, 06:36:40 AM »
Thank you, Missing Worlds Media, as well as the Titan Network fans here.  Looking forward to when City of Titans is ready to launch; this looks like it will be really cool and yay! finally a MMO my SG mates agree we'd all like to play!  It will be awesome to team up again with old friends!  /em holdtorch
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2013, 06:41:52 PM »
It's kind of contrary to the logic of an MMO to design it with the ability to go standalone, so massive props to the guys for that.
Yes and no.

Technologically speaking, I think most MMOs have a way to go "standalone" in some fashion, because they have to.  The realities of development mean your developers must be able to fire up the game, or a substantial fraction of the game, on their own PCs to be able to work and test things, particularly your content developers.  Its not practical to upload everything to test servers to test, and test environments are often staged in the same way as live servers (specifically to replicate and test live environments) which means developers have limited access to them.  So the technical machinery to make this work tends to exist always.

But almost no one pushes those development capabilities forward into a useable state for normal players, because there's no commercial benefit to doing so.  Its extra work that will likely never see the light of day, and development teams are not encouraged to expend a lot of time adding features that will never be commercially leveraged.  So while it tends to exist, it tends to be "tinkery" and not always fully stable and certainly not optimized for the kind of hardware the typical player might have.

But its not a case of starting from zero and creating a stand alone version.  The realities of development force most developers, including Cryptic/Paragon Studios as well as MWM, to get at least half way just out of their own necessities.  After that, its just a matter of making it a priority to go the last mile.

This is specifically referring to the technology to play a game stand alone.  It of course does not address the external issues of who makes content for a game like that, how players find each other, is the game content even interesting and playable when completely solo, etc.  But if NCSoft *wanted* to make a stand alone City of Heroes, it would have been a bit tricky given its server architecture but not really all that difficult.  The same is likely true for City of Titans.


On the issue of whether its logical at all, before the shutdown, I did propose on the CoH official forums a specific MMO concept that revolved around directly incorporating a stand alone single player experience that I think was logical.  Its not the model MWM is using (and that model would have been significantly more difficult to execute) but I believe the notion of an MMO combined with a single player stand alone experience is a viable one both conceptually and commercially.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2013, 01:48:49 AM »
Yes and no.

Technologically speaking, I think most MMOs have a way to go "standalone" in some fashion, because they have to.  The realities of development mean your developers must be able to fire up the game, or a substantial fraction of the game, on their own PCs to be able to work and test things, particularly your content developers.  Its not practical to upload everything to test servers to test, and test environments are often staged in the same way as live servers (specifically to replicate and test live environments) which means developers have limited access to them.  So the technical machinery to make this work tends to exist always.

But almost no one pushes those development capabilities forward into a useable state for normal players, because there's no commercial benefit to doing so.  Its extra work that will likely never see the light of day, and development teams are not encouraged to expend a lot of time adding features that will never be commercially leveraged.  So while it tends to exist, it tends to be "tinkery" and not always fully stable and certainly not optimized for the kind of hardware the typical player might have.

But its not a case of starting from zero and creating a stand alone version.  The realities of development force most developers, including Cryptic/Paragon Studios as well as MWM, to get at least half way just out of their own necessities.  After that, its just a matter of making it a priority to go the last mile.

This is specifically referring to the technology to play a game stand alone.  It of course does not address the external issues of who makes content for a game like that, how players find each other, is the game content even interesting and playable when completely solo, etc.  But if NCSoft *wanted* to make a stand alone City of Heroes, it would have been a bit tricky given its server architecture but not really all that difficult.  The same is likely true for City of Titans.


On the issue of whether its logical at all, before the shutdown, I did propose on the CoH official forums a specific MMO concept that revolved around directly incorporating a stand alone single player experience that I think was logical.  Its not the model MWM is using (and that model would have been significantly more difficult to execute) but I believe the notion of an MMO combined with a single player stand alone experience is a viable one both conceptually and commercially.

I think I remember that proposal. It was a very good idea, at least to me.

And yeah I think too that the notion of an MMO combined with a single player stand alone is viable, especially commercially. Because it opens it up to another set of gamers, many which will spend lot of money on game they like.

And many console games are starting to get like MMOs. So either console games will scoop up those players with it's ability to play online and or as stand alone or MMOs will get to that crowd of people. Right now, consoles are a bit ahead. Even sandbox worlds are getting huger and huger. Some near if not bigger than MMO worlds. All many need and some on a light scale already have, is a multiplayer feature where they can interact in a world that lives even when they "log out" in multiplayer mode. It's just a matter of time. The question is who will do it. Will MMO makers let console games steal their territory or will MMO makers steal console game territory. There are many console and single player gamers out there ,and it's a vast market, that wish the world was a bit bigger and didn't have to deal with other people for a bigger world. There are some MMO players that like the expansive environments but wish they sometimes could play and take a break from the hustle and bustle of being surrounding by a bunch of people all the time. Untapped market, that have money.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2013, 01:46:00 PM »
I know I'd be willing to play City of Heroes as a stand alone game, even though it was the community and the teaming up that made it great!
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2013, 06:00:41 PM »
I know I'd be willing to play City of Heroes as a stand alone game, even though it was the community and the teaming up that made it great!
I'd play a stand alone version of COX in a heart beat and will give all I can and eat Ramen for weeks off the bat if someone started a cox like stand alone game or obtained COX and turned it into a stand alone.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2013, 08:28:52 AM »
I enjoyed teaming with a small select group of friends, but mostly soloed...I just LOVED it, and would play for hours. It's sort of like I was there as my character's sidekick, not that I 'became' the character itself. Stand alone or multi-player....either would be awesome. There are few things that I ever missed more.
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2013, 02:31:33 PM »
I also enjoyed soloing CoH just as much as teaming. 

Because of my schedule (which involves lost of international travel for work) I'm often in different countries and time zones and so can't really maintain 'regular' hours.

So I would welcome this utility in the legacy games and absolutely be up for a stand alone version!

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2013, 12:21:45 AM »
I mainly soloed or played with members of my SG. I did enjoy, on many an occasion, teaming with new people just to get to know them and their toons. I, being retired, would literally sit and play for hours getting up only for the occasional "bio" or to get something to eat. I used to get a kick when playing my toon Older'n Dirt when someone would always say "Bet I'm older than you are!"  I'd say "Bet your not," and they'd tell me, " I'm XX years old," and I'd usually be 15 - 20 years older. Then one day I had this conversation with a friendly female player: "Just how old is Older'n Dirt?" she says. I replied, "Probably old enough to be your grandfather," sat back and laughed. The reply I got back made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of my chair, "Well you must really be Older''n Dirt cause I'm 75 years old!" All I could say was, "Well, finally I have someone to look up to!"
I really enjoyed the 7 years I'd played CoH and miss it terribly. My most memorable times playing CoH is when my 2 year old grandson would sit on my lap and first started to "play" by hitting the space bar to make my toons jump! He too now misses our toons and the game and once in a while will ask, "Is City of Heroes going to come back grandpa?" Someday, we hope, Someday!
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2013, 01:28:01 AM »
If it gets enabled 6 months down the road... My thought was a separate "server kit" made for private development/play (A mapserver kind of program that a user can host, with some artificial limit to make the actual game attractive... not as hamstrung as Free Ventrilo Servers at 5 people, but past 15 connections seems improbable for Home use let alone 64) with a single client update done after the Server Kit release that lets the game client point to a different server other than the MWM Production Server, I'd be fine with that and maybe even give it a spin, even if the Server Kit is at a premium cost.

But it's not in my "launch priorities".  Especially if doing this makes things delayed...  And we should give the game a chance to make it on it's own, too.  If it was available as a private server at launch, I'd fear that past the initial purchase the game would be suffocated by it's own players by paying for the game, then using it "offline" and not participating with MWM.  (And it's easy to say "I'd never do that", but we the enthusiasts can't speak for the player base as a whole.)

Just my two cents.
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JaguarX

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2013, 02:13:36 AM »
If it gets enabled 6 months down the road... My thought was a separate "server kit" made for private development/play (A mapserver kind of program that a user can host, with some artificial limit to make the actual game attractive... not as hamstrung as Free Ventrilo Servers at 5 people, but past 15 connections seems improbable for Home use let alone 64) with a single client update done after the Server Kit release that lets the game client point to a different server other than the MWM Production Server, I'd be fine with that and maybe even give it a spin, even if the Server Kit is at a premium cost.

But it's not in my "launch priorities".  Especially if doing this makes things delayed...  And we should give the game a chance to make it on it's own, too.  If it was available as a private server at launch, I'd fear that past the initial purchase the game would be suffocated by it's own players by paying for the game, then using it "offline" and not participating with MWM.  (And it's easy to say "I'd never do that", but we the enthusiasts can't speak for the player base as a whole.)

Just my two cents.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah it's easy to think everyone wants to team be surrounded by friends every log on, and do more socializing instead of playing. Which is true...among the group that does that. But player base as a whole. Many would do a sigh of relief and might take it and run.

Maybe later after things get settled in good. But probably shouldn't wait to long, aka 8 years then people will start leaving all that is left is the few groups of hard cores while rest moved onto something else which by then, might have scratched the itch a bit better.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2013, 12:34:59 PM »
Note, this is NOT a model we're actively considering (though it has never been rejected):

It could be possible, with our cheap-to-free client, to let that stay cheap-to-free, and have the "stand-alone" version of the game that lets you be your own server be priced like a AAA game or something.

There are a number of potential issues with this, but it would be one feasible way to answer the "but the majority might 'take the game and run' after the one-time purchase" concern. If a AAA game can recoup its costs just selling the boxes for stand-alone use, letting those who want to use it purely stand-alone buy it at that price would hopefully off-set any losses from them not participating in the game.

Like I said, there are issues with this and I'm not sure I like the idea, but I thought I'd mention it just to see if it sparks any better ideas from anybody else.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2013, 01:48:34 PM »
Releasing the ability to run private servers is at least on the table for a worst case scenario such as MWM not being able to continue to run the game. It has also been talked about in other ways like Segev has said. Since our philosophy is that the game will never die, there will at least be private servers if catastrophy happens.
Also, Segev is more into the tech side than I  am (I'm just in sound design and writing some) ,so if he says there are fuzzy areas there be assured there definitely are.
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2013, 02:09:22 PM »
At the moment, my involvement is actually mostly on the financial side. I'm the treasurer. I do keep in touch with the creative and tech sides (mostly content on the former), but I do not speak for either of them. Monetization strategies, however, are an area in which I am involved because, well, finances. ^_^

As things develop, I'll be getting a bit more into the tech side again because some of the meta-controls (things that help maintain certain kinds of balance in the economy, for instance) will likely be CI-based. But elaborating on that is likely to bore people, as I'll nerd out over my professional area and probably get lost in minutia. ^^;

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2013, 02:40:48 PM »
At the moment, my involvement is actually mostly on the financial side. I'm the treasurer. I do keep in touch with the creative and tech sides (mostly content on the former), but I do not speak for either of them. Monetization strategies, however, are an area in which I am involved because, well, finances. ^_^

As things develop, I'll be getting a bit more into the tech side again because some of the meta-controls (things that help maintain certain kinds of balance in the economy, for instance) will likely be CI-based. But elaborating on that is likely to bore people, as I'll nerd out over my professional area and probably get lost in minutia. ^^;
Actually I'm kind of interested in what kind of works, like meta-controls are in the works. To me, that is part of watching a game being built. All of it wont be action movie exciting but still interesting to know.

Better than learning about it after it goes live then seeing things that could be improved but cant because it would take major rewiring of the system and thus stuck with it.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2013, 06:09:45 PM »
I'll try to expound upon it a bit more in the future, then. ^_^

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 08:28:21 PM »
As things develop, I'll be getting a bit more into the tech side again because some of the meta-controls (things that help maintain certain kinds of balance in the economy, for instance) will likely be CI-based. But elaborating on that is likely to bore people, as I'll nerd out over my professional area and probably get lost in minutia. ^^;

I kinda dig learning the reasoning behind decisions like item pricing. The wannabe game designer in me enjoys seeing how single threads weave together to make the bigger picture. I don't know if I could add much to that discussion, but I definitely wouldn't be bored :)

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2013, 08:33:54 PM »
See? Next, I'll be calling my kids by the wrong name when they're acting up! :)
My parents did that to me and my two brothers a LOT while I was growing up. All three names with a boy-kid-thing tacked on to the end.

In fact, thirty years later my mom still does that... ???
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2013, 08:42:56 PM »
My Mom still will rattle through all my younger siblings before getting my name out, sometimes. Often ending with a half-joking "I know you're one of mine!"


Item pricing, if I can pull off the CI learning and adaptation algorithms, will be market-driven on all fronts, with the vendors both serving as convenient retailers, quest-giving sources of items they normally stock but which are too rare right now, and as stabilizing influences on the market.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 09:35:17 PM »
I'd say a standalone version would probably not hurt anything, provided:
1.  There is no standalone to server transfer of items/currency and vice/versa.
2.  There is no transfer of standalone characters to the server.  The reverse probably wouldnt hurt.
3.  There is no change to task forces or trials to make it soloable in standalone mode ( i.e. this would be the incentive
to pay for online access )

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Triplash

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 09:42:30 PM »
My parents did that to me and my two brothers a LOT while I was growing up. All three names with a boy-kid-thing tacked on to the end.

In fact, thirty years later my mom still does that... ???

Heehee. I have two sisters and four brothers, and I came along almost nine years after the rest. So mine was the LAST name on the list. Shoot, I even got called the girls' names if she was really frazzled ;D

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2013, 01:30:56 AM »
Heehee. I have two sisters and four brothers, and I came along almost nine years after the rest. So mine was the LAST name on the list. Shoot, I even got called the girls' names if she was really frazzled ;D
My mom always used the same order of names (oldest, middle, and youngest (with boy-kid-thing thrown on the end)) , no matter who was in trouble. Funny enough, we always knew who she was talking to.  :P

Now the interesting part is that my oldest brother lives in the same town as my mom, and the middle brother and myself live halfway across the country. And she still gets all the names in there when she's talking about one of us. We just tack on the boy-kid-thing for her now...
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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2013, 03:33:44 AM »
I get this between myself and my nephew. Usually it ends with 'you know who you are!"
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.

nightshade001

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2013, 08:33:39 AM »
It is great to see how well this is being received, however when things do get started with the development process, for any game trying to be CoX's successor is to make the game unique with its own vision. 

Homages and paying tribute to a game like CoX is great, however direct copies or clones of games rarely work. For a game like this to do well it will need to take what worked well for CoX, as well as what is working for CO and DCUO, and improve upon those concepts while at the same time doing something unique with the concepts.

While also looking at what didn't work and figuring out why, or abandoning those concepts all together.   City of Titans, Valiance Online, or any other game that might be in the works need to have their own identity, something to set them apart from being just a copy of City of Heroes.

Aggelakis

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2013, 03:13:40 PM »
It is great to see how well this is being received, however when things do get started with the development process, for any game trying to be CoX's successor is to make the game unique with its own vision. 
The development process has already begun - more than a year now - and Titans definitely has its own flavor. There's no way to simply remake City - that ship has sailed.
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JWBullfrog

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2013, 04:05:18 PM »
The development process has already begun - more than a year now - and Titans definitely has its own flavor. There's no way to simply remake City - that ship has sailed.

The idea is, and always has been stated to be, to take the best of what we loved about CoH and use that as a template. The idea behind CoH, the feeling of community, the inclusiveness, the spirit of adventure, the feeling of power, all those things that made Paragon what we loved, are what Titans is trying to preserve. They know that they cannot just build a clone and call it done. There are far too many reasons why that is a bad idea and those have been talked to death.
 
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.

Twisted Toon

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2013, 08:20:49 PM »
I know one thing that CoH did that really spoiled me, and I really miss playing other games: Sidekicking/Explaring. And to a lesser degree, having teams of 8. What nut-job decided that a team size of 4 was "big enough" for a "team oriented" game like Star Wars?
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Zombie Man

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2013, 08:50:57 PM »
City of Titans is also making sure we're safe from claims of IP infringement that could possibly come from a thinly veiled reskinning of CoH. If you take CoH and simply rename all the powersets but keep them exactly the same, or copy the GUI, or copy all the costumes... well that could be a big ol' lawsuit waiting to happen.

We're keeping what we all loved (at least, the general idea, not the specifics) and ditching what was not loved and adding new stuff that one sees from other modern MMOs and some unique stuff... you know, what every MMO does. But, it won't be a clone. That way lies litigious madness.

It's highly doubtful that CoH2 was going to be simply a clone, but a next generation. And that's what we're doing.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2013, 12:50:03 PM »
The trick, of course, is that one person's "loved" is another person's "not loved", and one person's "cool new feature" is another person's "Scrappy mechanic."  There's a lot of new mission types talked about in the new Kickstarter Update that sound just plain frustrating to me, like "fall behind and get wiped out by a giant gang of enemies" or "two-minute timed missions."  The latter is annoying enough in Champions, where every character can be a DPS hybrid (and where such missions still usually fail at least 50% of the time); in a game with distinct Support and Tank classes with lower DPS, though, that time limit seems impossibly short.

Just make sure that, when you're adding more, that the "more" doesn't wind up removing key features of the old game (like simplicity).

Of course, the thing about CoH is that it never quite felt like it had been purposely designed the way it was.  It felt like everything was just sort of a mish-mash of random ideas and spaghetti code that somehow managed to come together into a great game (kinda similar to the way teaming in CoH tended to be a chaotic mess of noise and light and yet always got you through the missions).

But I don't need to tell you that.  You used to play, too :)  I'm still very much looking forward to CoT.

Arcana

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2013, 06:51:08 PM »
Of course, the thing about CoH is that it never quite felt like it had been purposely designed the way it was.  It felt like everything was just sort of a mish-mash of random ideas and spaghetti code that somehow managed to come together into a great game (kinda similar to the way teaming in CoH tended to be a chaotic mess of noise and light and yet always got you through the missions).
Almost everything in City of Heroes was designed to be what it was, but almost none of it was designed to do what it did.

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2013, 08:06:29 PM »
Almost everything in City of Heroes was designed to be what it was, but almost none of it was designed to do what it did.
It is a definite example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
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Phaetan

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2013, 10:40:45 PM »
I am inclined to agree with Thunder Glove, especially on some of the tight timing missions.  I like taking my time on missions, reading everything and all that.  I also love playing some of the lower damage classes sometimes and toying with the mobs.

Also, because of where I live, a good ping score for me is 500.  Tightly timed missions are incredibly irritating when you're already dealing with lag on the magnitude which most other gamers declare unplayable.

Arcana

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2013, 02:56:05 AM »
On the subject of timed missions and restrictive missions in general, and even more generally on the subject of "failure" I always thought City of Heroes players were a little too spoiled in terms of expecting success, and wildly successful success in particular as the expected norm, due in no small part to the limits of CoH mission technology.  Nearly every core XP mission was basically a skinned combat environment of the kill or be killed mission.  And no one wants to be "be-killed."

But I think it would track better with the comic book world in general if there was a little more grey between "dropped dead" and "genocide."  For example, I think it would have been legitimate to make a timed mission in which, say, you had to fight your way to rescue a hostage, with the possibility of failing the mission *if* that failure wasn't a binary failure, but just a variable in the mission arc.  If you succeed in saving him, maybe in the next mission it turns out he was a traitor and you have to fight him.  Conversely if you fail to save him, the mission arc goes off on a different tangent instead with different mission content. 

Success or failure should, in general, I think be thought of in terms of overall mission arc goals, not in terms of individual fights, or spawns, or even instanced missions.  You can satisfy both the power builder power gamer and the more casual player by constructing missions in which the power gamer blasts through the mission largely on firepower, while the more casual player struggles along a different path that ultimately generates comparable amounts of character progression and an equally rewarding story.

I think its okay to fail, and for the game to create the circumstances in which many players fail, so long as failure isn't ultimate failure.  As in comic books, the game environment should be one in which death is not final, failure is not final, and there are always second chances.  True, final, permanent, non-repeatable failure should be extremely rare.  Temporary, repeatable, bypassable, ultimately surmountable failure is something that I think CoT could use more of, relative to CoH.  I think it just makes running missions more interesting.

One thing I thought was the exact opposite of what makes sense for inclusive casual play was CO's original death penalty.  Every time you died, you got a temporary self-debuff.  You got weaker.  Which means if you died in a tough mission, good luck trying again.  After three deaths without the penalty expiring, good luck not getting killed by random spawns just trying to cross the street.  After five stacked deaths (the limit if I recall correctly) good luck not dying tripping off the sidewalk.

That's backwards.  Sure, you're rewarding good play by penalizing bad play, but conversely you're also punishing weakness: if you make a mistake, the game makes you more likely to make another, and even more likely to make another, until you have no choice but to walk away from the game and wait for the death penalty to expire.  But in a game that is trying to help the player to succeed, you'd want to do the opposite.  So if you die running mission A, maybe the game tosses you a bone and sends the City SWAT team in with you on the next mission to help you out.  If you blast through the missions without breaking a sweat, maybe the next mission is just a little harder.

In the same way I think failure should be an option, I believe City of Titans should be like Hogwarts: Help will always be provided to those who ask for it.

Twisted Toon

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2013, 09:13:56 AM »
But I think it would track better with the comic book world in general if there was a little more grey between "dropped dead" and "genocide."  For example, I think it would have been legitimate to make a timed mission in which, say, you had to fight your way to rescue a hostage, with the possibility of failing the mission *if* that failure wasn't a binary failure, but just a variable in the mission arc.  If you succeed in saving him, maybe in the next mission it turns out he was a traitor and you have to fight him.  Conversely if you fail to save him, the mission arc goes off on a different tangent instead with different mission content.
I recall a mission in CoH where you had to rescue a person from a burning building, you'd have to traverse 4 floors of burning confusion all the while not using the elevators (because its silly to use elevators in a burning building). Instead, you had to use certain stairway doors(placed nowhere near the elevators), that looked just like the other stairway doors that you couldn't use, all in the time of about 2 minutes. I played that mission numerous times (solo and teamed) and not once did I actually complete it successfully. I was about 3 steps from the front door when the timer ran out once, though.

Personally, I don't really care for timed missions like that. It was frustrating for me, but I'm sure other people really enjoyed it. To each their own. :)
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

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Segev

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2013, 12:57:16 PM »
Incorporating "failure is an option" mission resolution is one of my goals. But balancing it with expectations such that it doesn't feel like you've "screwed up" to the point that playing - or trying to play - is no longer fun is a challenge.

If we can incorporate it, we certainly will have the rewards be comparable (if not identical) for either result. The meaningful differences might be in what plot mcguffin you get, or a specific awarded item, or the like. But binary choices should also be designable such that you can, to a degree, define what is "success." Maybe helping Faction A undermine Faction B is success for you in this mission; for somebody else, it might be making sure Faction B's plan works out. And either way, even if you "chose" the wrong one, the fallout from it will lead to more missions in an arc. It may alter which arc, or the pathing through a given arc, but it should still lead to more opportunities for fun and plot and profit.

Arcana

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2013, 07:27:38 PM »
Incorporating "failure is an option" mission resolution is one of my goals. But balancing it with expectations such that it doesn't feel like you've "screwed up" to the point that playing - or trying to play - is no longer fun is a challenge.

If we can incorporate it, we certainly will have the rewards be comparable (if not identical) for either result. The meaningful differences might be in what plot mcguffin you get, or a specific awarded item, or the like. But binary choices should also be designable such that you can, to a degree, define what is "success." Maybe helping Faction A undermine Faction B is success for you in this mission; for somebody else, it might be making sure Faction B's plan works out. And either way, even if you "chose" the wrong one, the fallout from it will lead to more missions in an arc. It may alter which arc, or the pathing through a given arc, but it should still lead to more opportunities for fun and plot and profit.
Another way is to have no well-defined end point at all for some tasks.  For example, imagine a warehouse in which blinkie boxes are guarded by spawns, and you can kill as many of them as you want and take what's in the box.

Put nine thousand in the mission and no one is getting them all.  So there's no arbitrary "success" point.  So there's also no failure one either.  Some players get eight, some get four, some get twelve.  None of those are binary success or failures.

Cutouts are another way of masking failure.  You have a mission arc that has an optional side mission that is timed: players can choose to run it or skip it.  If they like timed missions they can give it a try.  If they don't like them but want to try them anyway they can.  If they skip or fail, it doesn't negatively impact the primary story arc.  In fact, you can often incorporate skipping into the narrative as a non-fail: while investigating the Skyraiders you discover they've sent an assault team to attack a weapons depot.  "You can try to stop them yourself or call law enforcement, but if you decide to try to stop them yourself you only have thirty minutes to get there and defeat them before they escape with the weapons."  If you choose the skip option, you're opting out, but narratively you aren't really "failing" anything.

There are lots of ways to do this.  You locate the secret Council base, and you have two options: fight your way to the communications center and call in a Vindicator airstrike on it, or fight your way to the reactor core and set it to overload, destroying the base.  But if you choose to overload the reactor, alarms will sound and you'll have only ten minutes to fight your way out before it goes boom.  This embeds an optional timed challenge into a mission rather than creating a stand alone separate timed mission.

Allowing multiple paths to success goes a long way in allowing players to have some control over picking the type of mission content they want to run without having to sacrifice whole story arcs that are unpalatable.  That creates more flexibility to include things that many players want, but some players can't or won't play.

Nightwatch

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2013, 11:39:12 AM »

The Phoenix Project - City of Titans by Missing Worlds Media

MASSIVE RESULT ON KICKSTARTER FOR CITY OF TITANS AND FANS TRYING TO RESSURRECT COH!

Successful!
212% funded
$678,189 pledged
Funded Nov 4, 2013


Nightwatch

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2013, 11:26:26 AM »

Congratulations to the folks behind the Phoenix Project and Missing Worlds Media on an excellent Kickstarter.  No doubt you're all dreading the sheer amount of work in front of you but are reassured by over 5,000 donors!

This augurs well for City of Titans of course but the other folk at Heroes & Villains, SCOPE and elsewhere should also be encouraged.  The Kickstarter demonstrates there is support and a solid base for the projects people are working on.

God bless you all!