Author Topic: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed  (Read 24598 times)

Thunder Glove

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2013, 12:50:03 PM »
The trick, of course, is that one person's "loved" is another person's "not loved", and one person's "cool new feature" is another person's "Scrappy mechanic."  There's a lot of new mission types talked about in the new Kickstarter Update that sound just plain frustrating to me, like "fall behind and get wiped out by a giant gang of enemies" or "two-minute timed missions."  The latter is annoying enough in Champions, where every character can be a DPS hybrid (and where such missions still usually fail at least 50% of the time); in a game with distinct Support and Tank classes with lower DPS, though, that time limit seems impossibly short.

Just make sure that, when you're adding more, that the "more" doesn't wind up removing key features of the old game (like simplicity).

Of course, the thing about CoH is that it never quite felt like it had been purposely designed the way it was.  It felt like everything was just sort of a mish-mash of random ideas and spaghetti code that somehow managed to come together into a great game (kinda similar to the way teaming in CoH tended to be a chaotic mess of noise and light and yet always got you through the missions).

But I don't need to tell you that.  You used to play, too :)  I'm still very much looking forward to CoT.

Arcana

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2013, 06:51:08 PM »
Of course, the thing about CoH is that it never quite felt like it had been purposely designed the way it was.  It felt like everything was just sort of a mish-mash of random ideas and spaghetti code that somehow managed to come together into a great game (kinda similar to the way teaming in CoH tended to be a chaotic mess of noise and light and yet always got you through the missions).
Almost everything in City of Heroes was designed to be what it was, but almost none of it was designed to do what it did.

Twisted Toon

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2013, 08:06:29 PM »
Almost everything in City of Heroes was designed to be what it was, but almost none of it was designed to do what it did.
It is a definite example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

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Phaetan

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2013, 10:40:45 PM »
I am inclined to agree with Thunder Glove, especially on some of the tight timing missions.  I like taking my time on missions, reading everything and all that.  I also love playing some of the lower damage classes sometimes and toying with the mobs.

Also, because of where I live, a good ping score for me is 500.  Tightly timed missions are incredibly irritating when you're already dealing with lag on the magnitude which most other gamers declare unplayable.

Arcana

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2013, 02:56:05 AM »
On the subject of timed missions and restrictive missions in general, and even more generally on the subject of "failure" I always thought City of Heroes players were a little too spoiled in terms of expecting success, and wildly successful success in particular as the expected norm, due in no small part to the limits of CoH mission technology.  Nearly every core XP mission was basically a skinned combat environment of the kill or be killed mission.  And no one wants to be "be-killed."

But I think it would track better with the comic book world in general if there was a little more grey between "dropped dead" and "genocide."  For example, I think it would have been legitimate to make a timed mission in which, say, you had to fight your way to rescue a hostage, with the possibility of failing the mission *if* that failure wasn't a binary failure, but just a variable in the mission arc.  If you succeed in saving him, maybe in the next mission it turns out he was a traitor and you have to fight him.  Conversely if you fail to save him, the mission arc goes off on a different tangent instead with different mission content. 

Success or failure should, in general, I think be thought of in terms of overall mission arc goals, not in terms of individual fights, or spawns, or even instanced missions.  You can satisfy both the power builder power gamer and the more casual player by constructing missions in which the power gamer blasts through the mission largely on firepower, while the more casual player struggles along a different path that ultimately generates comparable amounts of character progression and an equally rewarding story.

I think its okay to fail, and for the game to create the circumstances in which many players fail, so long as failure isn't ultimate failure.  As in comic books, the game environment should be one in which death is not final, failure is not final, and there are always second chances.  True, final, permanent, non-repeatable failure should be extremely rare.  Temporary, repeatable, bypassable, ultimately surmountable failure is something that I think CoT could use more of, relative to CoH.  I think it just makes running missions more interesting.

One thing I thought was the exact opposite of what makes sense for inclusive casual play was CO's original death penalty.  Every time you died, you got a temporary self-debuff.  You got weaker.  Which means if you died in a tough mission, good luck trying again.  After three deaths without the penalty expiring, good luck not getting killed by random spawns just trying to cross the street.  After five stacked deaths (the limit if I recall correctly) good luck not dying tripping off the sidewalk.

That's backwards.  Sure, you're rewarding good play by penalizing bad play, but conversely you're also punishing weakness: if you make a mistake, the game makes you more likely to make another, and even more likely to make another, until you have no choice but to walk away from the game and wait for the death penalty to expire.  But in a game that is trying to help the player to succeed, you'd want to do the opposite.  So if you die running mission A, maybe the game tosses you a bone and sends the City SWAT team in with you on the next mission to help you out.  If you blast through the missions without breaking a sweat, maybe the next mission is just a little harder.

In the same way I think failure should be an option, I believe City of Titans should be like Hogwarts: Help will always be provided to those who ask for it.

Twisted Toon

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2013, 09:13:56 AM »
But I think it would track better with the comic book world in general if there was a little more grey between "dropped dead" and "genocide."  For example, I think it would have been legitimate to make a timed mission in which, say, you had to fight your way to rescue a hostage, with the possibility of failing the mission *if* that failure wasn't a binary failure, but just a variable in the mission arc.  If you succeed in saving him, maybe in the next mission it turns out he was a traitor and you have to fight him.  Conversely if you fail to save him, the mission arc goes off on a different tangent instead with different mission content.
I recall a mission in CoH where you had to rescue a person from a burning building, you'd have to traverse 4 floors of burning confusion all the while not using the elevators (because its silly to use elevators in a burning building). Instead, you had to use certain stairway doors(placed nowhere near the elevators), that looked just like the other stairway doors that you couldn't use, all in the time of about 2 minutes. I played that mission numerous times (solo and teamed) and not once did I actually complete it successfully. I was about 3 steps from the front door when the timer ran out once, though.

Personally, I don't really care for timed missions like that. It was frustrating for me, but I'm sure other people really enjoyed it. To each their own. :)
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

Segev

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2013, 12:57:16 PM »
Incorporating "failure is an option" mission resolution is one of my goals. But balancing it with expectations such that it doesn't feel like you've "screwed up" to the point that playing - or trying to play - is no longer fun is a challenge.

If we can incorporate it, we certainly will have the rewards be comparable (if not identical) for either result. The meaningful differences might be in what plot mcguffin you get, or a specific awarded item, or the like. But binary choices should also be designable such that you can, to a degree, define what is "success." Maybe helping Faction A undermine Faction B is success for you in this mission; for somebody else, it might be making sure Faction B's plan works out. And either way, even if you "chose" the wrong one, the fallout from it will lead to more missions in an arc. It may alter which arc, or the pathing through a given arc, but it should still lead to more opportunities for fun and plot and profit.

Arcana

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2013, 07:27:38 PM »
Incorporating "failure is an option" mission resolution is one of my goals. But balancing it with expectations such that it doesn't feel like you've "screwed up" to the point that playing - or trying to play - is no longer fun is a challenge.

If we can incorporate it, we certainly will have the rewards be comparable (if not identical) for either result. The meaningful differences might be in what plot mcguffin you get, or a specific awarded item, or the like. But binary choices should also be designable such that you can, to a degree, define what is "success." Maybe helping Faction A undermine Faction B is success for you in this mission; for somebody else, it might be making sure Faction B's plan works out. And either way, even if you "chose" the wrong one, the fallout from it will lead to more missions in an arc. It may alter which arc, or the pathing through a given arc, but it should still lead to more opportunities for fun and plot and profit.
Another way is to have no well-defined end point at all for some tasks.  For example, imagine a warehouse in which blinkie boxes are guarded by spawns, and you can kill as many of them as you want and take what's in the box.

Put nine thousand in the mission and no one is getting them all.  So there's no arbitrary "success" point.  So there's also no failure one either.  Some players get eight, some get four, some get twelve.  None of those are binary success or failures.

Cutouts are another way of masking failure.  You have a mission arc that has an optional side mission that is timed: players can choose to run it or skip it.  If they like timed missions they can give it a try.  If they don't like them but want to try them anyway they can.  If they skip or fail, it doesn't negatively impact the primary story arc.  In fact, you can often incorporate skipping into the narrative as a non-fail: while investigating the Skyraiders you discover they've sent an assault team to attack a weapons depot.  "You can try to stop them yourself or call law enforcement, but if you decide to try to stop them yourself you only have thirty minutes to get there and defeat them before they escape with the weapons."  If you choose the skip option, you're opting out, but narratively you aren't really "failing" anything.

There are lots of ways to do this.  You locate the secret Council base, and you have two options: fight your way to the communications center and call in a Vindicator airstrike on it, or fight your way to the reactor core and set it to overload, destroying the base.  But if you choose to overload the reactor, alarms will sound and you'll have only ten minutes to fight your way out before it goes boom.  This embeds an optional timed challenge into a mission rather than creating a stand alone separate timed mission.

Allowing multiple paths to success goes a long way in allowing players to have some control over picking the type of mission content they want to run without having to sacrifice whole story arcs that are unpalatable.  That creates more flexibility to include things that many players want, but some players can't or won't play.

Nightwatch

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2013, 11:39:12 AM »

The Phoenix Project - City of Titans by Missing Worlds Media

MASSIVE RESULT ON KICKSTARTER FOR CITY OF TITANS AND FANS TRYING TO RESSURRECT COH!

Successful!
212% funded
$678,189 pledged
Funded Nov 4, 2013


Nightwatch

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Re: City of Titans Kickstarter oversubscribed
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2013, 11:26:26 AM »

Congratulations to the folks behind the Phoenix Project and Missing Worlds Media on an excellent Kickstarter.  No doubt you're all dreading the sheer amount of work in front of you but are reassured by over 5,000 donors!

This augurs well for City of Titans of course but the other folk at Heroes & Villains, SCOPE and elsewhere should also be encouraged.  The Kickstarter demonstrates there is support and a solid base for the projects people are working on.

God bless you all!