Author Topic: How far would you be willing to go?  (Read 11962 times)

AlabasterKnight

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How far would you be willing to go?
« on: October 17, 2013, 02:31:12 PM »
Simple question:

If CoH was resurrected by any company (excluding NCSoft), would you be will to pay a subscription fee to play knowing that the company or companies who brought it back would have to expend resources to exhume it from the NCSoft graveyard?

I would.

Quinch

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 02:34:21 PM »
I paid a subscription since the day I got into the game, even after Freedom.

So, naturally.

Ironwolf

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 03:01:59 PM »
I already figured out I would pay up to about $35-40 a month.

LadyVamp

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 04:38:54 PM »
Sure.  Why not.  I was a paid subscriber from coh issue 2.  Never stopped even during freedom.

But that's an easy question.  Let's go for the real question.  What if NCSoft returned it to service?

For the record, I'd give it serious consideration.  I would want to appoint a team from our player base to meet with Sr management to hammer out the details and get signed contractual commitments from NCSoft before my mice would return to Paragon City.

At the minimum:
  • NCSoft would have to show three consecutive years of losses before they can shut it down again.
  • A minimum of 50% of all earning must be reinvested in CoH only.
  • A genuine advertising campaign to bring perspective players.  Not this post in some obscure forum and call it advertisement.
  • Restore from backup all of our toons, SGs/VGs, etc.
  • Regular quarterly meetings between NCSoft management and our appointed team to discuss the game
  • Regular quarterly meetings between the Devs and our appointed team to discuss the game, content, direction, etc.

One of the rumours I've heard for years in CoH was no one knew where to take the game after building villains.  At least two of the commitments would greatly help in that area.

Of course, it's all open for negotiation.
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JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 05:52:12 PM »
Oh yeah I probably will subscribe again regardless.


And that contract thing is a good idea, except I doubt any company would be keen on having to suffer through three years of losses. During those three years of losses, who will reinburse them for that money lost? While some sort of contract could be made and enforced, there should be also what is in it for them. For example while they are left holding the bag for three years of losses and players come and go as they please without risk. Maybe it should be that duringthose three years players should be contractually obliged to pay $15 a month sub. to even it out. Assuming that woudl be included in the contract.

But person to person, what brings them back and put their anxiety at ease varies but some semblence of not shutting down pretty suddenly in one way or another would probably have to be in the works for many if NCSOFT did bring the game back

Illusionss

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 06:53:40 PM »
Simple question:

If CoH was resurrected by any company (excluding NCSoft), would you be will to pay a subscription fee to play knowing that the company or companies who brought it back would have to expend resources to exhume it from the NCSoft graveyard?

I would.

Pay a subscription, in order to get my beloved alts back? Are you serious? I would probably empty out my retirement account, to get my hands on my alts again. But only to get back what I lost at shutdown - to have to reroll from day 1, I would pay a sub fee only.

I don't think this is going to happen, though, so I derail from that mindset and start wondering what the CoT avatar-builder is gonna be like. I don't want to worry about losing my people again for a long, long time - and that would always be at the front of my mind, were CoX to reopen. I would be dreading the headman's axe every day.

LadyVamp

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 09:52:04 PM »
I wouldn't expect them to agree to three years of losses either but it's a point to negotiate on.  I'm quite certain they'd have conditions they'd want to bring to the table as well.  Like I said at the end,  everything's negotiable.    :)
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JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 10:01:06 PM »
I wouldn't expect them to agree to three years of losses either but it's a point to negotiate on.  I'm quite certain they'd have conditions they'd want to bring to the table as well.  Like I said at the end,  everything's negotiable.    :)

Indeed.  :D

Terwyn

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 10:04:54 PM »
Depends heavily on who brought it back.
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Taceus Jiwede

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2013, 01:25:08 AM »
Of course I would.  Who wouldn't?  I played CoH all 8 years for a fee I don't see a reason not to again.  Why has everyone become so anti-monthly fee.  At least when there were monthly fees we were getting finished games and F2P you actually spend more money monthly on crap from the market then you do on a monthly fee.  People didn't waive monthly fees out of the kindness of their heart.

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2013, 02:02:36 AM »
Of course I would.  Who wouldn't?  I played CoH all 8 years for a fee I don't see a reason not to again.  Why has everyone become so anti-monthly fee.  At least when there were monthly fees we were getting finished games and F2P you actually spend more money monthly on crap from the market then you do on a monthly fee.  People didn't waive monthly fees out of the kindness of their heart.
yup.


Although I seen a lot of people claim after F2P they didn't spend another dime in game. Looking back not sure if that was good or bad or neutral in hindsight.

JanessaVR

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2013, 03:05:48 AM »
As I said in my letters to Disney and Google - I was never anything but a paid subscriber to CoH and had no plans to cancel my subscription ever.  Though I did always wait for Nov - Dec for them to announce their annual "buy 12 get 14 months" subscription deal before renewing.   :)

JanessaVR

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 03:13:14 AM »
Although I seen a lot of people claim after F2P they didn't spend another dime in game. Looking back not sure if that was good or bad or neutral in hindsight.
Are you kidding, I spent at least $1,000 more after F2P came out.  My biggest complaint about CoH before that was not being able to catch up on veteran rewards.  Then F2P and its rewards tree came out - I promptly dropped like $500 or so on the market and bribed my way up to Tier 9 as fast I could; finally I had all the goodies.  Remote market access was my #1 fave - that came in so handy.  You could be at the rear end of the shadow shards and buying and selling to heart's content.  Combined with a portable crafting table, those were killer abilities.  More than once I remember being out in the middle of nowhere and someone needed some new enhancements in a hurry after leveling up while we were on mishes.  I call up the market, buy the recipes and salvage, summon my portable crafting table and hand them over.  Awesome beyond words.  Especially fun when someone got a purple drop and wanted to slot it immediately.

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2013, 03:35:32 AM »
I call up the market, buy the recipes and salvage, summon my portable crafting table and hand them over.  Awesome beyond words.  Especially fun when someone got a purple drop and wanted to slot it immediately.
You probably have some idea of how badly i wished things like the crafting table became account-wide unlocks when you got it on one character. i cycled through far too many alts for repeatedly unlocking it to be worth it to me. Although for about a year my Night Widow on Virtue was my main crafting and salvage harvesting alt, so for her it was worth it. Mostly because i used her in AE to get rare salvage. My main source of purple recipes was my Dark/Electric Brute whose pathological hatred of Rikti lead to many long evenings rampaging through the RWZ getting a suprisingly large number of purple drops.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2013, 04:13:08 AM »
Are you kidding, I spent at least $1,000 more after F2P came out.  My biggest complaint about CoH before that was not being able to catch up on veteran rewards.  Then F2P and its rewards tree came out - I promptly dropped like $500 or so on the market and bribed my way up to Tier 9 as fast I could; finally I had all the goodies.  Remote market access was my #1 fave - that came in so handy.  You could be at the rear end of the shadow shards and buying and selling to heart's content.  Combined with a portable crafting table, those were killer abilities.  More than once I remember being out in the middle of nowhere and someone needed some new enhancements in a hurry after leveling up while we were on mishes.  I call up the market, buy the recipes and salvage, summon my portable crafting table and hand them over.  Awesome beyond words.  Especially fun when someone got a purple drop and wanted to slot it immediately.

I wish I was kidding. smh. 


Handing out recipes to those in need? You seemed like a cool person in the game. Many people get stingy and snarky when it comes to "handing out freebies". They  rather sell at highest price possible on the market to add to their billions than hand anything over to a newbie especially. As they used to say " stop looking for hand outs and put in the work, newb." Although I heard people went on a give away spree towards the end.

JanessaVR

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2013, 04:42:58 AM »
I wish I was kidding. smh. 

Handing out recipes to those in need? You seemed like a cool person in the game. Many people get stingy and snarky when it comes to "handing out freebies". They  rather sell at highest price possible on the market to add to their billions than hand anything over to a newbie especially. As they used to say " stop looking for hand outs and put in the work, newb." Although I heard people went on a give away spree towards the end.
Ok, those people were jerks.  I preferred to be helpful if I could.  By the last year of the game I'd kitted out all my primary characters and had like 10 to 20 billion INF spread around between all my alts.  I didn't see a reason not to be generous with it.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 04:47:48 AM »
I spent wayyyy more after the game went F2P. Part of it was that I only started the game a couple of years before the end and liked the idea of getting more tokens to unlock some of the neat extras my friends who started at beta had. But most of it was because I got a little bit addicted to Superpacks. I'm quite sad that even if the game comes back I probably won't have any way to get my stacks of nifty goodies from there back. And I enjoyed making use of the team inspirations for tough battles, and giving doubles of the special enhancements I got away to friends...

But yeah, I'd happily pay for this game again. I guess it would depend again on who released it. But honestly, even if NCSoft said they were bringing it back for 3 months only I'd probably play for those 3 months. :p Only starting a couple of years from the end and being relatively casual there was still so much content I hadn't done.

Twisted Toon

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 05:35:06 AM »
Ok, those people were jerks.  I preferred to be helpful if I could.  By the last year of the game I'd kitted out all my primary characters and had like 10 to 20 billion INF spread around between all my alts.  I didn't see a reason not to be generous with it.
I have been both the recipient and ninja donator of enhancements and recipes many times. It's fun to give those things away. Especially the more rare ones.
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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 06:00:32 AM »
I've said before, I'd be torn if CoH came back.
Giving this much dough (and investing this much hope) to MWM, I would not abandon them.
I mean, I would not want to abandon them, but...
No no no, I would not abandon them. But on the other hand...
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downix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 06:03:06 AM »
From a pragmatic standpoint, it depends on who is doing the offering. Trading one overlord for another is no use for any of us. Even worse would be an effort to squeeze every last dime out of CoH fans, which is what would happen with any effort with a pocket book even large enough to consider the purchase. The only practical solution would be with a multifaceted company, like Disney or Google, which could leverage the full value of the property. Another game company, it would just be a matter of time before we wound up here again I fear. Even worse, if a company just bought the rights in order to push their own projects or ideas on to the community, like what happened with Mechwarrior Online. Buying an existing IP to then exploit the community associated with it, a shameful act, but all too common.

Tubbius

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 03:10:26 PM »
I would so be in on this, back to a subscription again even with my reduced hours and pay now.

AlabasterKnight

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 10:53:44 PM »
From a pragmatic standpoint, it depends on who is doing the offering. Trading one overlord for another is no use for any of us. Even worse would be an effort to squeeze every last dime out of CoH fans, which is what would happen with any effort with a pocket book even large enough to consider the purchase.

So it's unfair for a company who can afford to resurrect the game to expect to manage and own the IP they paid for?
Pragmatically speaking, any company that were to resurrect the CoH property will likely have plans on some sort of evolution and need to be fiscally responsible to that investment, hence the question in the first place. They'd might even have to make the product attractive to new audiences and more likely have to develop a sequel.
Any company that could make the deal could leverage the 'full' value. That's a team capability, not a deep pockets proposition.

Quote
The only practical solution would be with a multifaceted company, like Disney or Google, which could leverage the full value of the property.Another game company, it would just be a matter of time before we wound up here again I fear. Even worse, if a company just bought the rights in order to push their own projects or ideas on to the community, like what happened with Mechwarrior Online. Buying an existing IP to then exploit the community associated with it, a shameful act, but all too common.
Right. Because we couldn't expect different results from anyone else.

To take the emotion you feel toward NCSoft and its decision and even how they chose to go about it to an emotional apex as you do is understandable, you're obviously still wounded by them. (The whole community feels this to varying degrees.)

But please, let's not try to use that emotion as an appeal to everyone's common sense here and in the next breath characterize the potential good a company might do as suggested in the original post as being some sort of ominous presence with a devious goal. I bolded all the literal manipulation in your post. Your stated philosophies over at MWM, and the same beliefs that you foster here about games owned by corporations border on political hyperbole and fear speech and the suggestions in this thread spank at paranoia as well. You and Terwyn both know who I am, I know who you are, so let's keep our politics out of the thread, eh?

It's really a yes/no question. There isn't a need for any of this fear tactic commentary to cast doubt on the question.
I'd like to just stick to the topic.

If a company brought it back, they'd have to pay to acquire it and return it to activity. It's a known quantity.
There is no magic wand to wave and get CoH back commercially in a manner that supports community and growth without such an investment. Pragmatic people know this and hence, that is the question.
If a company did, would we as players be willing to pay for it?

downix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 11:16:38 PM »
So it's unfair for a company who can afford to resurrect the game to expect to manage and own the IP they paid for?
Not at all, pointing out the sad reality that a company which can pay for such a property may not manage it any better than the current owners, and could in fact make things far, far worse, as Mechwarrior Online demonstrates so very clearly.

Terwyn

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 11:24:45 PM »
Honestly, if you are successful in bringing CoH back, that's great.

It's the heavily dependence on how it was brought back that leaves me cynical. There's no politics at all involved here on my part. It's the motives of potential investors that gives me pause. They didn't step in earlier, so why should they be trusted?

If you can run it better than NCSoft, you deserve to be able to bring it back.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 11:31:12 PM by Terwyn »
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JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 11:35:03 PM »
Not at all, pointing out the sad reality that a company which can pay for such a property may not manage it any better than the current owners, and could in fact make things far, far worse, as Mechwarrior Online demonstrates so very clearly.
Very possible.


The way COX  turned out, was a random happening of events that happened to fit together well when it was up. From the chemistry to the dev team, to each person that was part of the community the good the bad and the ugly.


That wont happen again. If some company do pick it up, they probably will be looking to coupe the money and I doubt they will simply follow the old COX path as in their eyes, it probably proved to not work, especially a major game company. 2.5 million a quarter or  a year (1%-2% of income) is not even worth bothering with to most major corporations. Most lose more than on every day normal leakage. Thus they probably will try what is proven to bring money in. Which looking in the mmo world, probably is no where near what COX was. Then on top of that you have totally different devs with a totally different idea of fun, game direction and how and what a game should be. Even if they tried to emulate COX it wouldn't be the COX as we know it especially once they add expansion that didn't exist yet. Even with some ideas that have been tossed around in old COX, some as heard were a couple of votes from being implemented or some barely got implemented. Now imagine it flipped around or all those ideas get rejected, and say they feel the game should use more lockboxes instead so they can make more money instead of content.  I can imagine the howls of "This isn't COX!!!"

And lastly they WILL have to attract new players to be or aim to be majorly profitable to justify even investing much more than minimum or shutdown (again) meaning new types of players with different ideas of what they find fun and what they find not so fun. What may be considered popular opinion fun in the old community may be considered outdated and stupid and should be thrown out to the new ones coming in. And since they would be by definition part of the community then, the devs cant say, "we are just going to listen to the old heads always, the same cliques that ran old COX." That probably will sink the game and two create a lot of hostilities in the community  and thus wouldn't even be a fun community to be in. Imagine the way the old forum was in the last three months of COX and imagine dealing with that every day for years in game and out of game except on a bigger scale of us vs them. It's all possible especially when dealing with new people new company new people and new way to gain a big population and money and different vision of the people that is developing the game. Hell, look at the different views of what made COX special even among people who played the old COX. Imagine outsiders view?

In short I think that it's unlikely any buyer especially a major player in the game industry IF they manage to buy it in the first place, would simply try to follow the footsteps exactly as it was heading before it got shutdown and settle for the exact, probably less now, amount of profits that COX was making when it got shutdown. More than likely they will try to figure out how to make more than it did and in their view change what didn't work and add what worked for them in the past for better or worse in the eyes of old cox players.

AlabasterKnight

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2013, 12:48:33 AM »
Honestly, if you are successful in bringing CoH back, that's great.

It's the heavily dependence on how it was brought back that leaves me cynical. There's no politics at all involved here on my part. It's the motives of potential investors that gives me pause. They didn't step in earlier, so why should they be trusted?

If you can run it better than NCSoft, you deserve to be able to bring it back.

I'm sure you mean "you" in general, meaning some company and not me personally. As far as investors, the game had no exposure in mass advertising worth a damn, so why would you even think anyone knows there is a reason to invest?
EDIT: If you have trust issues with an investor of any kind for their motives, theirs will be simple. They want to make a return on their investment. Nothing more.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 01:26:24 AM by AlabasterKnight »

AlabasterKnight

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2013, 01:24:50 AM »
...far, far worse...
I don't really see a far worse management scenario that the current state of not existent.

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2013, 01:28:29 AM »
I don't really see a far worse management scenario that the current state of not existent.

open world pvp and all grind. The time it used to take to get to level 50 street sweeping greens conned mobs if they 10 xp a pop is the time it takes to get to level 4. and one leveling path for heroes and one leveling path for villains to cut down on maintenance and possible bug areas. And only way to get enhancements and inps is by lockboxes and buying keys. :D

downix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2013, 01:41:37 AM »
I don't really see a far worse management scenario that the current state of not existent.
Then you lack imagination. JaguarX only went for the most obvious ones. There are far worse scenarios possible.

Terwyn

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2013, 02:08:03 AM »
I'm sure you mean "you" in general, meaning some company and not me personally. As far as investors, the game had no exposure in mass advertising worth a damn, so why would you even think anyone knows there is a reason to invest?
EDIT: If you have trust issues with an investor of any kind for their motives, theirs will be simple. They want to make a return on their investment. Nothing more.

Correct, I'm speaking in the general sense. And no, it's not trust issues, it's accountability. Their goal is to make a return on their investment, which means that they will have to do their due diligence. I am concerned as to what they would find.
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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2013, 02:19:44 AM »
The best way to decrease the chances of it being a trainwreck would be to have at least one senior member of Paragon Studios in a leadership role.
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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2013, 02:53:19 AM »
I'm with Downix, it depends on the circumstances at this point.  I would have been more receptive to a takeover closer to the "End of the World". Now that it's been gone for almost a year, I'm thinking a default no with a "But...".
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downix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2013, 04:15:57 AM »
The best way to decrease the chances of it being a trainwreck would be to have at least one senior member of Paragon Studios in a leadership role.
And with all of them having stable jobs now, highly unlikely.

healix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2013, 04:44:43 AM »
Well, maybe I might be wrong about this...but if you look between the lines of GG's statement, could it mean that she has already such a marvelous being on her team?



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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2013, 10:56:02 PM »
Honestly, I think the biggest "it depends" is on whether or not it's being run as it was, or being changed drastically.

If it's just being run "as it was," that's really mostly a "put out there with no plans for future development" condition. It may satisfy nostalgic feelings for a while, but it would also not really bring in new players. It would be a dose of pain killer for the wounded community, but it would not be a solution in and of itself. That said, it would always be there, as long as it was supported enough (by the players as much as if not more than the new owners) to not be a money hole for the new owners.

If it is being "re-started" with intent to expand it, it's riskier. It will change. Compare CoH on the day it launched to CoH on the day it was shut down: can you honestly say that they look identical? If the game had shut down in 2004, and in 2012 a new company had bought the IP and released the game with everything up through I24 added in, I imagine there would be a lot of people who'd cry foul, that it wasn't the same game anymore, that they'd "ruined" it with the F2P monetization model and all the new mechanics in Incarnate trials and the like. Heck, CoV would still be new (if not UTTERLY new), and there would be outcry of how it totally isn't the direction the "real" CoH would have gone.

 To be fair, any company that bought the IP and restarted it would LIKELY restart it at I23 or I24. That's all ready-made content and material, and they'd need time to familiarize themselves with it anyway. But if they planned to make it a viable, growing game with a healthy, growing community, there WOULD be new development, and it would always be subject to the claims that it's "not what Paragon would have done." Fair or not, true or not (and I think it would be true almost be tautology since it wouldn't BE Paragon running it), it will be said.

If it came back as something to be further developed, it would be interesting to see how well the community accepted it.

I do think the community would be happy to have it back, at first, and for at least a little while - maybe a year or so, before any major updates could be developed and released - we'd "have our game back." It would be up to each of us individually to determine if that's enough, and if what came next was a good change or not.

downix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2013, 11:20:07 PM »
Honestly, I think the biggest "it depends" is on whether or not it's being run as it was, or being changed drastically.

If it's just being run "as it was," that's really mostly a "put out there with no plans for future development" condition. It may satisfy nostalgic feelings for a while, but it would also not really bring in new players. It would be a dose of pain killer for the wounded community, but it would not be a solution in and of itself. That said, it would always be there, as long as it was supported enough (by the players as much as if not more than the new owners) to not be a money hole for the new owners.

If it is being "re-started" with intent to expand it, it's riskier. It will change. Compare CoH on the day it launched to CoH on the day it was shut down: can you honestly say that they look identical? If the game had shut down in 2004, and in 2012 a new company had bought the IP and released the game with everything up through I24 added in, I imagine there would be a lot of people who'd cry foul, that it wasn't the same game anymore, that they'd "ruined" it with the F2P monetization model and all the new mechanics in Incarnate trials and the like. Heck, CoV would still be new (if not UTTERLY new), and there would be outcry of how it totally isn't the direction the "real" CoH would have gone.

 To be fair, any company that bought the IP and restarted it would LIKELY restart it at I23 or I24. That's all ready-made content and material, and they'd need time to familiarize themselves with it anyway. But if they planned to make it a viable, growing game with a healthy, growing community, there WOULD be new development, and it would always be subject to the claims that it's "not what Paragon would have done." Fair or not, true or not (and I think it would be true almost be tautology since it wouldn't BE Paragon running it), it will be said.

If it came back as something to be further developed, it would be interesting to see how well the community accepted it.

I do think the community would be happy to have it back, at first, and for at least a little while - maybe a year or so, before any major updates could be developed and released - we'd "have our game back." It would be up to each of us individually to determine if that's enough, and if what came next was a good change or not.
Indeed. I keep coming back to the issues that Piranha Games has been having with its property Mechwarrior Online. They bought-into an existing property, and over the past year have managed to turn what was excitement at a cherished property being returned to life into an all out riot of consumer resentment. What was a promising MMO has turned into an absolute mess on their hands.

And it did so over what are honestly trivial changes to the underlying game, adding a third person camera mode and a cash store option for rapid cooloff. Yet due to these trivial changes, MWO is now suffering a serious cash-crunch as the fans they counted on supporting them flee to alternative titles, or abandon the property entirely.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2013, 12:30:52 AM »

It's the heavily dependence on how it was brought back that leaves me cynical. There's no politics at all involved here on my part. It's the motives of potential investors that gives me pause. They didn't step in earlier, so why should they be trusted?


Perhaps investors would come forward now because of the massive decline the value of the property.  In fact, the more you believed in the dedication of the player base, the more cushion you have to wait for the value to decline.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2013, 01:43:46 AM »
Perhaps investors would come forward now because of the massive decline the value of the property.  In fact, the more you believed in the dedication of the player base, the more cushion you have to wait for the value to decline.

Maybe, but at the same time with the decline in value or not if NCSOFT don't budge on their price or what they, the holder of the property, say the value is, then the value could be $1 in the buyer's eyes but it wont matter if the one that is holding the only one says they want $40 million for it. Like anything. When a buyer wants to dump an item fast, they price it low enough that people are falling over themselves to get to the steal. If they meh either way, they may set a price and wont change it for years. If they don't want to sell it yet, they may ask for some crazy amount knowing they wont be flooded with offers. Kind of like houses. Some people want move fast they sell below what other sell similar house for, if they are no rush they sell at market value if not a little bit more. Then you have the ?make me move people." Usually seen many of those priced anywhere from 2-3 times the actual value of similar houses. The main difference though, as people been saying since the days and after COX, there is nothing like COX out there. Thus, if it is truly the only one, then the one that have the power to say what the true value is, is the seller in this case. It's one of a kind, still in demand with people talking about it. Whether it's about the CoT or other projects, business proposals, etc. that IP is getting more attention now within the past year than it ever did in it's entire 8 year existence. 

People keep saying that there is a ready made community for it waiting and still trying to get it back. That adds great value in anyone eyes and that seem to make it more valuable than ever. As long as we remember it and keep going for it, the more valuable it will be, at the same time though if we give up the less valuable it will becomes and that is when less other things will be interested in buying and more buried it will actually become. Thus, not giving up is probably best even though it is what is holding the value of the IP in reality.  As long as we are here, going for it, the value will never sink. Just need someone willing to pay and a willing seller. It takes two. Hence the key word- Negotiations. Not "give it up or else we'll say bad things about you." That is not proper negotiation.

And keep in mind, people and businesses are more willing to lower prices and more lax with people that doesn't seem hostile in the approach or approaches with both parties in mind instead of what they get from the seller. AKA, they are more willing to be more lenient on the terms and price with friends rather than strangers and or hostile people. Like anything.

If came to a person's house and said you will sell me your house for market value right now! Or I will go to the media saying you are a porn addict and abuse your family and other gossip around the neighborhood. So SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!" more than likely I would imagine, the person probably would look at me like I was nuts, even if they don't even use the house, and probably would say no and not too keen on the offer even if I should up with cash money in many cases. Now if I worked with them be patient and not storm off because they "refuse to sell" and not started going around town saying they are stupid and putting memes up about them online, then when it came down to sell they might even have me on their brain and actually give me a lower price than what I was initially offering. Sometimes the actual approach is more important than the actual offer.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 01:50:00 AM by JaguarX »

Segev

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2013, 02:07:12 AM »
Indeed. I keep coming back to the issues that Piranha Games has been having with its property Mechwarrior Online. They bought-into an existing property, and over the past year have managed to turn what was excitement at a cherished property being returned to life into an all out riot of consumer resentment. What was a promising MMO has turned into an absolute mess on their hands.

And it did so over what are honestly trivial changes to the underlying game, adding a third person camera mode and a cash store option for rapid cooloff. Yet due to these trivial changes, MWO is now suffering a serious cash-crunch as the fans they counted on supporting them flee to alternative titles, or abandon the property entirely.
...okay, I need to know more about this. How on earth did such minor changes so grossly destroy the love the fans had for the game?

Especially a third-person camera. Just don't use it if you don't like it!

What did Pirannha Games ignore from their customers?

I will say the pay-for-cooldown is treading too close to pay-to-win, but it's still not something that, by itself or even in conjunction with an optional camera mode, should be driving customers away in droves.

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2013, 02:13:13 AM »
...okay, I need to know more about this. How on earth did such minor changes so grossly destroy the love the fans had for the game?

Especially a third-person camera. Just don't use it if you don't like it!

What did Pirannha Games ignore from their customers?

I will say the pay-for-cooldown is treading too close to pay-to-win, but it's still not something that, by itself or even in conjunction with an optional camera mode, should be driving customers away in droves.

WHat is considered a minor change by some is considered a make or break major change to some.

Like say if COX buyer made a minor change and started to charge real money for the market. To me, that would be a minor change. To others that could cause people to simply stop playing.

Or COX buyer did had a pay to win option, keyword-option. Just like the camera, they could simply not use it, but the fact that type of minor addition might be enough for some to say it's a major change and leave even though they could still use the old way and ignore the pay to win stuff if they chose to.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2013, 03:31:06 AM »
...okay, I need to know more about this. How on earth did such minor changes so grossly destroy the love the fans had for the game?

Especially a third-person camera. Just don't use it if you don't like it!

What did Pirannha Games ignore from their customers?

I will say the pay-for-cooldown is treading too close to pay-to-win, but it's still not something that, by itself or even in conjunction with an optional camera mode, should be driving customers away in droves.
It boils down to confusing excitement over the property for excitement over the company. The fans did not love the game, they loved Battletech, the property they had licensed. They were ok with the game because it gave them access to the property they loved. When the game became less enjoyable due to a change which violated core tenants of the game they were fans of, even if the changes were relatively minor, it colored the perception. Fans left the game due to this perception, true or not.

Myself, I enjoy the game. I do not find these changes serious. But finding a match is far, far harder than it used to be. I used to login and get into a match in a few minutes. Now I can sit idle waiting for enough people for ages. This discourages me from playing, I don't like waiting for 5-10 minutes for a single battle. And I'm not the only one, this becomes a death spiral for any online game. The perception of issues by a vocal group then becomes a major problem, as issues with the game get blamed on these problems. People no longer want the game, which itself was not what people were excited about.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2013, 03:36:25 AM »


Myself, I enjoy the game. I do not find these changes serious. But finding a match is far, far harder than it used to be. I used to login and get into a match in a few minutes. Now I can sit idle waiting for enough people for ages. This discourages me from playing, I don't like waiting for 5-10 minutes for a single battle. And I'm not the only one, this becomes a death spiral for any online game. The perception of issues by a vocal group then becomes a major problem, as issues with the game get blamed on these problems. People no longer want the game, which itself was not what people were excited about.

How I felt about TF/SF in COX exactly. As the population waned, the time it took to form TF/SF/Trial became nuts. Sometimes tried for over an hour just to get enough people. Not fun, to me at least.
And some people blamed that on i13. Even though many already left prior to i13 and thus a lot of times when COX was alive i13 got blamed on killing PVP and causing less people running around when PvP was already dead and the population already was slipping  prior to that  for various reasons.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2013, 03:42:16 AM »
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2013, 03:45:18 AM »
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 03:59:49 AM by JaguarX »

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2013, 03:52:22 AM »
... it wasn't exactly a gold mine.

That may be true but... *Sobs on Jags shoulder* it was OUR gold mine! Why god? WHY have you forsaken thee?!
History shows again and again
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JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2013, 04:01:20 AM »
That may be true but... *Sobs on Jags shoulder* it was OUR gold mine! Why god? WHY have you forsaken thee?!
yeah it sucks.

Like those small town on the outskirts of a major city where everyone is happy but the government/land developers have other plans and kick them off to build a large shopping mall instead and tell them to get lost and find another home.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2013, 07:52:05 AM »
That may be true but... *Sobs on Jags shoulder* it was OUR gold mine! Why god? WHY have you forsaken thee?!
For whatever reason, CoH is worth more dead than alive to NCSoft. I have my theories, with some evidence to back them up, but in the end, threads like this one do more harm than good. They give people hope for a miracle that is never coming.

If some company did manage to convince NCSoft to sell, by this point the damage has been done, and is no longer reversible. A year of R&D needed to keep it in the game is gone, erased, never happened. Realize that right now we would be discussing issue 27 or 28 coming out soon. We can never get that time back. Only an effort to produce a CoH2 would have any traction, and we already have three efforts to do such. Someone swooping in to do so I fear would be an opportunist at best, an exploiter at worst. Only someone who understood the community, or had a history of absorbing a variety of properties successfully could manage it, and the number of groups able to do that are few and far between.

I can wish for CoH back, but to dangle hope is not helping anyone. It is just cruelty. We know NCSoft's answer.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:08:37 AM by downix »

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2013, 02:56:58 PM »
...okay, I need to know more about this. How on earth did such minor changes so grossly destroy the love the fans had for the game?

Especially a third-person camera. Just don't use it if you don't like it!

It's not that simple.  The game was supposed to be a mech simulation.  Not a 3rd person shooter.

The addition of 3rd person DRASTICALLY changes how the game is played.  And, due to the 3rd person perspective, those using it have DRAMATIC increases in situational awareness.  Because, instead of relying on LOS and instrumentation, they simply zoom out and see stuff that SHOULD be hidden from them.

This leads to phenomena like "pop tarts".  Basically a pop tart is a jump enabled mech that simply stands behind an obstruction, and when an enemy is sighted, they pop straight up, alpha-strike the crap out of the opponent, and drop back down into cover.  And this style of play is ONLY viable because of the 3rd person POV.

Quote
What did Pirannha Games ignore from their customers?

Players made it known VERY early in development (as in before they opened to private beta) that 3rd person was something that would ruin the game Pirannha was promising.  And, at the time, Pirannha basically flat out stated that they were going for a mech sim, not a 3rd person shooter.  It was even said as such at the sit down at GenCon 2012.

It's actually bad enough that I refuse to talk about the product in the BT community due to my position.  Because it'd be construed as me shitting on a partner.

downix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2013, 04:33:52 PM »
It's not that simple.  The game was supposed to be a mech simulation.  Not a 3rd person shooter.

The addition of 3rd person DRASTICALLY changes how the game is played.  And, due to the 3rd person perspective, those using it have DRAMATIC increases in situational awareness.  Because, instead of relying on LOS and instrumentation, they simply zoom out and see stuff that SHOULD be hidden from them.

This leads to phenomena like "pop tarts".  Basically a pop tart is a jump enabled mech that simply stands behind an obstruction, and when an enemy is sighted, they pop straight up, alpha-strike the crap out of the opponent, and drop back down into cover.  And this style of play is ONLY viable because of the 3rd person POV.

Players made it known VERY early in development (as in before they opened to private beta) that 3rd person was something that would ruin the game Pirannha was promising.  And, at the time, Pirannha basically flat out stated that they were going for a mech sim, not a 3rd person shooter.  It was even said as such at the sit down at GenCon 2012.

It's actually bad enough that I refuse to talk about the product in the BT community due to my position.  Because it'd be construed as me shitting on a partner.
As I said, technically a minor change, but with major impact and now serious customer resentment.

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2013, 05:13:21 PM »

I can wish for CoH back, but to dangle hope is not helping anyone. It is just cruelty. We know NCSoft's answer.
yeah.

Segev

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2013, 06:15:31 PM »
I wouldn't agree that threads like this do more harm than good; they're a measure of what interest there is. Admittedly, they're purely hypothetical, along with all the speculation on how much the IP is worth to NCSoft, but if they could garner detailed information about how many people would still be interested and how much they'd spend for a) a life-support sustainment of CoH as it would have been if they'd frozen it at i24 or b) a new effort to re-launch CoH with an intent for future development.

Such measures ARE useful for determining to what price CoH would have to fall as an IP before it would be "worth" buying, and to what end it is worth buying.

"Further development" vs. "Make some money on a nearly-free sustainment mode" are two different prospects with two different price tags which would need to be evaluated.

Where these threads fall short then is in the basic premise: a question on a fan board asking people for anecdotes is only so-so. Still, it's worthwhile to see if there are still those who'd try it for a while, and how long they'd give it. One CAN extrapolate a bit from it.

The other point of failure of these threads is mainly in just how hypothetical they are. Though even then, I suppose they're of interest to MWM, H&V, etc. because they measure in another way the community's interest in the genre.

saipaman

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2013, 01:02:27 AM »
At this point, I doubt NCSoft has the means to bring the game back.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2013, 06:29:32 PM »
That wont happen again. If some company do pick it up, they probably will be looking to coupe the money and I doubt they will simply follow the old COX path as in their eyes, it probably proved to not work, especially a major game company. 2.5 million a quarter or  a year (1%-2% of income) is not even worth bothering with to most major corporations. Most lose more than on every day normal leakage.

To be fair, this is $2.5M in profit for a game that, for all intents and purposes, had zero advertising. Major corporations should already be more than aware of how badly a lack of advertising -- or incompetent advertising -- can hurt sales of a product, and would be able to project what the playerbase and income would be if CoH were to have been marketed intelligently. Someone seriously looking at CoH would take its income record as its rock bottom performance, not its peak performance.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2013, 06:57:30 PM »
At this point, I doubt NCSoft has the means to bring the game back.

The value of the property was at least [AT LEAST! AND MAYBE MUCH MORE] halved they day NC wiped all the servers, regardless of any attempt to resurrect the game. And you just know they've wiped them by now.

All of our work: gone as though it had never existed. What mattered to the playerbase? Their own personal stuff. Which is now GONE....

Pardon my French: screw NC. I would get on an emulator, but I am done living in fear - as I would be doing were NC to reopen the game, and the majority of the space in my head dedicated to MMOs is now focused on raising my people from the dead in a new, SAFE environment. I am done living in fear.

I think resurrecting the game is #100,000 on their list of Top Ten Things To Worry About. IMO it is a dead issue as well.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2013, 07:00:21 PM »
To be fair, this is $2.5M in profit for a game that, for all intents and purposes, had zero advertising. Major corporations should already be more than aware of how badly a lack of advertising -- or incompetent advertising -- can hurt sales of a product, and would be able to project what the playerbase and income would be if CoH were to have been marketed intelligently. Someone seriously looking at CoH would take its income record as its rock bottom performance, not its peak performance.
Of course but have to take into consideration that more than likely that even if the game came back on tomorrow let alone few years down the line, that it probably wont make 2.5 million/quarter probably for the first year or so at least. And of course those factors of advertising or not have been factored or rather will be factored into the actual purchase value of the IP. Then them one have to spent on that marketing on top of the other stuff such as studio set up and possbly personnel costs to get it up and running.

And that is assuming advertising actually works and bring as many as expected. Either way unless they can get back every single player that was there plus some extra to cover the extra money put into the advertising, then the path for performance still in the end will be different than the path that NCSOFT took. Usually that means changes to the game that may or may not be considered classic COX like, which if it aint classic COX like, then that would drive the old players away, and make it uphill battle to convince new players to play a game that is already 8 years old. Meaning more than likely marketing or not they are taking a great risk and the path that they take will be different than the path NCSOFT too in the end.

One travel I10 all the way, the other go I20 to I75 south. Either way will get ya to Florida.

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2013, 09:06:04 PM »
Unrelated hypothetical question: How would people feel about a former CoX player investing heavily enough into NCSoft so as to effectively challenge current control of the company, for the key purpose of ensuring that they never again turn their backs on loyal customers?
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JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2013, 10:02:00 PM »
Unrelated hypothetical question: How would people feel about a former CoX player investing heavily enough into NCSoft so as to effectively challenge current control of the company, for the key purpose of ensuring that they never again turn their backs on loyal customers?
well you might get called a ncsoft shill at first. :p

I started the process but have long way to go. Got a couple of more people already invested. One, the biggest investor of the bunch is still on the fence.

Hop on in, the water's fine.

johnrobey

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2013, 02:04:11 AM »
Interesting discussion.  Back to the OP:  Of course I'd be willing to subscribe again!  Like many, I never let my subscription lapse even under the F2P model.

Unlike some, I am not willing (nor able) to invest in NCSoft - but if some number of fans here can gain a controlling/influential interest, well, excellent!
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saipaman

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2013, 02:11:36 AM »
If we had the money to gain control of NCSoft, we could just save ourselves lots of money and simply pay them their outrageous asking price for CoX.

Probably the real truth here is that NCSoft has long forgotten about CoX.

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2013, 02:45:18 AM »
If we had the money to gain control of NCSoft, we could just save ourselves lots of money and simply pay them their outrageous asking price for CoX.

Probably the real truth here is that NCSoft has long forgotten about CoX.
Indeed.

But remember as stock owner, by definition, ya part owner of the company and thus can sit in the stock holders meeting. While owning small piece means the voice is small, but think about who else are in those meetings? Many times the big dogs or their representative. You go to these stock meetings and you'd be surprised what corporation own part of this and that corporation. While sometimes you get looked down upon as a peasant, but majority of the cases big or small 1 or 3 million shares, you are one of the guys/gal for that time. And thus you have their ear as a fellow stock holder. Ya don't have to have enough to take over, just enough to get into the door.

Ex-customer- complains, probably in the trash can.
Stockholder-small time complains- might get a pre printed letter.
Stockholder mid sized- might get a reply from some lower end executive
Stockholder large sized- Probably some actually typed or written letter custom
Stockholder jumbo- You have their attention.

Now of course we don't have enough hanging about here to become jumbo. But think, even small time, is a foot in the door to the ear up the ranks. People that makes 2.5 million a quarter look like couch change.


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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2013, 03:32:18 AM »
At $185.85/share, I don't see us coughing up that kind of money to get enough control to affect the company.  We'd have to buy over 6 million shares just to make a 30% dent in outstanding shares.  Institutional investment only holds 4.37 million shares and that's about 808 mil usd.

For a fraction of that, we could rebuild paragon studios with the original devs and put out 10 times the game that coh was.  and, have big name endorsements in our advertising.

Then again, perhaps one of those "buy the game and you'll have a loyal group of perpetual players (aka payers) pumping cash into your investment" packages that were sent out should be sent to the fund managers.  Those fund managers do understand more money coming in and have the clout to tell companies what to do and not to do.  One of them just might like the idea.  It's worth a shot.   Worst they could do is take no action.
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JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2013, 04:35:08 AM »
At $185.85/share, I don't see us coughing up that kind of money to get enough control to affect the company.  We'd have to buy over 6 million shares just to make a 30% dent in outstanding shares.  Institutional investment only holds 4.37 million shares and that's about 808 mil usd.

For a fraction of that, we could rebuild paragon studios with the original devs and put out 10 times the game that coh was.  and, have big name endorsements in our advertising.

Then again, perhaps one of those "buy the game and you'll have a loyal group of perpetual players (aka payers) pumping cash into your investment" packages that were sent out should be sent to the fund managers.  Those fund managers do understand more money coming in and have the clout to tell companies what to do and not to do.  One of them just might like the idea.  It's worth a shot.   Worst they could do is take no action.
yup.

Nealix

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2013, 06:47:20 PM »
Yes definitely!  I would buy a lifetime subscription if they offered it.  I want my water blaster back so bad!

dwturducken

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2013, 09:56:08 PM »
I thought someone had researched NCSoft and found that the actual voting shares were all held by board members, and they were all buddies. Basically, the only way to get any voting power was to get yourself appointed to the board, and then you still had to turn a majority of these close friends to your side of the cause. I could be remembering it wrong, and I'm not finding it quickly by searching.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

JaguarX

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2013, 10:31:08 PM »
I thought someone had researched NCSoft and found that the actual voting shares were all held by board members, and they were all buddies. Basically, the only way to get any voting power was to get yourself appointed to the board, and then you still had to turn a majority of these close friends to your side of the cause. I could be remembering it wrong, and I'm not finding it quickly by searching.
that is how it is in alot of corporations. And that is exactlly how it works in NCSOFT.

 But it's not about voting and getting into the board per se (at least I hope not because yeah that would cost a few lottery wins at least and I dont have that type of dough to put in a fair share.)  but getting a voice I think they are more open to listening to stock holders than merely ex customers who hate their guts anyways.  You know, at least how she put it, "customers who are steaming mad and put in maybe a  couple of grand over 8 year period or people who put in more than 50,000 grand or more over that same time period? Who would you listen to more closely?"


And while I doubt it will cause a stockholder revolt, there have been many cases stockholders "revolted" and end up with fresh new people running the joint, and doen so without any being a voting member on the board.


But I'm not here to recruit or sell the idea. She probably would be highly pissed. Just tossing out an idea I'm embroiled with at this time and maybe get some feedback to think about. 


LadyVamp

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2013, 02:20:22 AM »
According to their own site, 21,898,832 share are outstanding.  All of it issued as common stock.  As of 9 months ago, 14.7% (3,218,091) owned by Nexon Co.,  9% (1,970,546) treasury shares (owned and held internally by NCSoft), 9.99% (2,188,000) owned by Taek jin Kim (ceo).  The rest owned by others (76.3%, 16,710,195).  A corporate raid is possible but very unlikely so long as the price remains too high.  I doubt the company's assets are worth anywhere near the price/share.

As for voting rights, since none of this is preferred stock, it all (except for the treasury stocks) has voting rights.
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Terwyn

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2013, 05:41:18 AM »
Well, it seems fairly easy to acquire. Just have a spare billion lying around, and you can probably make an offer for the entire thing. :P
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dwturducken

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2013, 01:49:29 PM »
I think it would be an understatement to say I prefer the chances for the three Plan  projects. :)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

CoyoteSeven

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Re: How far would you be willing to go?
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2013, 07:41:45 PM »
"I liked the game so much, I bought the company!"