Author Topic: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.  (Read 3545 times)

Sajaana

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Now I know that the successor projects are probably prioritizing things like fighting, the mission structure and so-on, but seeing as how it is never too early to contemplate the future, I'd like to share my thoughts on base building.  The things I liked most of all about the CoH base editor are the following:

1)  The free textures for the walls (all five heights), floors (all three heights) and ceilings (all three heights).

2)  The variability of the rooms.  I liked how we could determine the height of the floors, the height of the ceilings, and the configuration of the rooms through the floor and ceiling editor.

3)  The grid system.  I know some may disagree here, but I liked the ease and flexibility the grid gave you, over a more relaxed placement method, such as SWG's system.  SWG's editor was a kind of geo-relational system based on units derived from the position of the placing player.  While this was more realistic, it was an absolute nightmare to make everything sit and orient correctly. In CoH's system, every room had a three dimensional grid, and every object took up a given amount of space on the grid.  This made planning and placement easy, without sacrificing flexibility.

4)  "Solid" objects.  We didn't fall through objects, so we could use objects to create staircases, sub-floors, walls and so on.  SWG's system made it possible to walk through objects.  As a result, we couldn't create any structural elements.

5)  "Lego-like" construction elements.  We had desks and bookcases that we used like Lego bricks, and we used stacks of them to create the aforementioned walls, floors, etc.  They came in a variety of textures, so we could create wood walls, concrete walls and so on.  We also had curved pieces (thank you curved cabinet!), flat pieces (thank you floor tile!), columns, big structural elements (thank you sewer set!) and "one-way glass" (thank you whiteboard!).  We also had "special Lego pieces" like florescent lights (on and off), street lamps (on and off), ramps and other pieces that allowed us to create cages, railings, industrial staircases and so on.  Tis shows the flexibility of the system; items created to serve one function could be made to serve many functions.

6)  "Nesting" objects.  In the editor, we could overlap one object into another, to fill up any space.  This allowed us to create seamless structures and complex environments (like the vaulted gothic structures you might have seen with nested large arcane floor spires).

So, more or less, I think CoH's system had it right.  But here's the places where the Z projects could improve from CoH:

1)  Complete texture map skins.  Most of the items available in the base editor had only partial texture maps (like many of the sewer pieces, arcane pieces and tech pieces).  As a result, things like the desks and cabinets had to do most of the work for things like floors and walls, since they were fully mapped on the top, bottoms and sides.  I always said that if Cryptic or Paragon could have only added bottom, top and side textures to the existing items, it would be the greatest boon to the base builders since I-6.

2)  The "workaround" reliance on tools to stack.  We learned how to use floor safes, floor tile, cubicles and large lamps to "hoist" objects into their position on the grid, but we could have used a better system of placing objects that allowed us to move in three dimensions.

3)  I would have preferred a more "notchy" way to set angles.  We could "spin" objects, but it was difficult to replicate...say...a 45 degree wall, without the use of careful measuring and "jigs."  Perhaps if you allowed objects to be rotated at 5 degree intervals, it would make spinning objects easier.

Those are just my thoughts as a veteran CoH base designer.  I liked CoH's base building system a lot.  The basics are good, but there are also ways to improve it.

downix

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 07:23:23 PM »
Sounds similar to what we've planned.

Phaetan

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 03:43:17 PM »
I think it was with Freedom, that they added directly moving objects up and down in basebuilding.  I was so glad to have started basebuilding after that feature was implemented...

silvers1

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2013, 09:20:15 PM »
Whatever they come up with, I hope its easier to use than CoH's version.  I worked on a base on and off for several years,
and never progressed very far due to the clumsiness of the interface.   Just too frustrating to work with.

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Twisted Toon

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2013, 11:13:34 PM »
Whatever they come up with, I hope its easier to use than CoH's version.  I worked on a base on and off for several years,
and never progressed very far due to the clumsiness of the interface.   Just too frustrating to work with.
Near the end, base building was much easier than in the beginning. Objects could be placed where you wanted them (for the most part), even inside other objects. Also, they could be rotated (along any axis, I believe). That made base building much less of a chore, and made for much more creative bases.

One SG I was in had a hanger and a launch tube for the small fighters. The hanger had lifts that stored the fighters, and a control room to direct flight traffic. Now, I need to find the pics of that base...
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Artillerie

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 03:20:53 AM »
I made a 3 level maze in an SG base. Ground level had 2 exits in the ceiling leading to the 2 separate mazes on the 1st floor, one of which was a dead end. There were 3 exits in the ceilings of the other leading to the top floor and two of those final mazes were dead ends.

All made with square blocks, counter tops or something. Some people loved to run around it finding a way through but it just made some claustrophobic...

Did manage to fit in a couple of rooms to take a breather in.

It was quite amazing what some people managed to do with the base editor, saw some really impressive efforts.

(Admittedly, it was not easy.)


silvers1

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2013, 12:21:17 AM »
Near the end, base building was much easier than in the beginning. Objects could be placed where you wanted them (for the most part), even inside other objects. Also, they could be rotated (along any axis, I believe). That made base building much less of a chore, and made for much more creative bases.

One SG I was in had a hanger and a launch tube for the small fighters. The hanger had lifts that stored the fighters, and a control room to direct flight traffic. Now, I need to find the pics of that base...

Tried base building even towards the end, and it was still unusable to me.  What I would have prefered was some kind of HUD mover control with
S/W/N/E buttons, up/down buttons, left/right rotater buttons, and several toggle buttons to control the amount of movement.  I have a picture of it in my mind, but kind of hard to describe in text.

I also needed to be able to pick a new object, and then just click on the object I want it to be on top off - centered for me.  I had such difficulty getting things to align correctly.

What was also needed was some kind of "Object Builder".  For example, I saw some really neat christmas trees built up using ferns on the forums.  Looked pretty nice, and I tried making one and realized it was going to take hours.  Now, replicate that work by 10, if you want 10 trees.  Ouch.  I'd like to be able to make arrangments of such objects, save it, then replicate that arrangement as many times as needed.
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Second Chances

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Re: On the fundamentals of base building: from a user's perspective.
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 05:27:59 PM »
2)  The variability of the rooms.  I liked how we could determine the height of the floors, the height of the ceilings, and the configuration of the rooms through the floor and ceiling editor.

3)  The grid system.  I know some may disagree here, but I liked the ease and flexibility the grid gave you, over a more relaxed placement method, such as SWG's system.  SWG's editor was a kind of geo-relational system based on units derived from the position of the placing player.  While this was more realistic, it was an absolute nightmare to make everything sit and orient correctly. In CoH's system, every room had a three dimensional grid, and every object took up a given amount of space on the grid.  This made planning and placement easy, without sacrificing flexibility.

I agree on these, but I would like to see less space between the grid lines (maybe as small as half of what CoH had). That would still provide the organization benefit of the grid, but a finer level of control.

Quote
4)  "Solid" objects.  We didn't fall through objects, so we could use objects to create staircases, sub-floors, walls and so on.  SWG's system made it possible to walk through objects.  As a result, we couldn't create any structural elements.

5)  "Lego-like" construction elements.  We had desks and bookcases that we used like Lego bricks, and we used stacks of them to create the aforementioned walls, floors, etc.  They came in a variety of textures, so we could create wood walls, concrete walls and so on.  We also had curved pieces (thank you curved cabinet!), flat pieces (thank you floor tile!), columns, big structural elements (thank you sewer set!) and "one-way glass" (thank you whiteboard!).  We also had "special Lego pieces" like florescent lights (on and off), street lamps (on and off), ramps and other pieces that allowed us to create cages, railings, industrial staircases and so on.  Tis shows the flexibility of the system; items created to serve one function could be made to serve many functions.

Yep. I would want to see more specialized pieces, though, that reflect what people were trying to do with all that desk-stacking. Like, having solid platforms we could float in place of bunch of floating desks, or having taller wall sections that we could stack.

Quote
6)  "Nesting" objects.  In the editor, we could overlap one object into another, to fill up any space.  This allowed us to create seamless structures and complex environments (like the vaulted gothic structures you might have seen with nested large arcane floor spires).

Yeah, that was great for making unanticipated spaces, like using the giant ceiling-hand-pillars to give things a cave-like look. Again, in a next-gen evolution on what CoH did, I would want to see pieces added that are designed to provide more options for creating environments. Waterfall parts, for instance, or bits to make ice/snow walls, whatever. If it seems hard to devote resources to creating things like that, consider making sets of the more unusual pieces purchasable.

Quote
So, more or less, I think CoH's system had it right.  But here's the places where the Z projects could improve from CoH:

Agreed, on the rest, as well.