TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS

[JaguarX]

One thing to be cautious of in making declarations about mechanics - hypothetical or otherwise - is to make sure you identify whether the mechanic is actually the source of the problem, or merely the scapegoat. It is true that anything which has a sliding scale of effectiveness is going to mean that those with the highest-tier things in that scale will be better, mechanically, than those without. The degree of this slide will do a lot to determine how "must-have" the highest-tier stuff will be, just as the degree of effectiveness of a given build can determine how essential choosing an optimal one is.

At the same time, however, that is no reason to refuse to have a sliding scale; the whole point behind certain aspects of gameplay is to "get better stuff" so you can have bigger numbers or get cooler tricks. It's the reward system that people expect in MMOs. No matter how much we might want to include attention to other sub-games people play with our product, it would be foolish to ignore this aspect of gameplay, so central to the connotation of "MMO." I'm not advocating making a grind-fest, here, but I am saying that swinging so far away from it that you reject the core formula entirely is foolish.

As long as any "this is subjectively better than that" is present in a game, you WILL have players who settle into a kind of elitism over it. Whether their subjective "best" is accurate objectively or not, they will demand other players who play with them conform to their standards.  This can be "only somebody with all purples," or it can be "only ice controllers; any other controller sucks," or any number of other supposed "this is the bare minimum because without it you're just in my way."

We can't prevent people from playing the game this way. We can do our best to provide tools for finding friends and groups with those who do NOT behave this way. But we're certainly not kicking these people out of the game; they're players and customers, too, and while their rudeness is not condoned, attempting to police it gets dangerously close to policing preferences. "Block them and move on," would be my advice.

What we CAN do is attempt to find innovative ways to make pure power-building less feasible and less necessary. The latter is actually hard, because too little reward for "all purple" builds means people who worked for them don't feel it was worth the effort, while making it geared for whatever "normal" builds are expected to be can lead to "all purple" players complaining about how easy the game is. CoX offered the ability to slide the difficulty up and down to accommodate different optimization and skill levels, and that is one potential solution. It still leads to there being those who will take the attitude that if you can't handle a maxxed-out difficulty slider (which, they are certain, is impossible without all purples), you're a detriment.

The former - innovations on how to handle these things - can also only take us so far. The "awesomeness" resource I hypothesized earlier would mean it takes a long time for you to be able to slot "all purples," because having that much "awesomeness" is much harder to get than merely capping out your level. We could prevent it all the way by capping awesomeness, though I am somewhat intrigued by the idea that increasing "awesomeness" goes on even after you hit level cap. It might be something for exp to go into, making it so that exp is still worth getting even after you cap out your level.

In any event, make sure to keep in mind that mechanics may not be to blame for problems you had interacting with other players; it could just be that you and they have distinctly different play styles or preferences. Be polite to them and have a bit of a thick skin if they're not going to reciprocate. We will have "ignore" features to let you handle particularly abusive jerks, and while I won't make any promises (there must be a reason that every MMO ever has people complaining about GMs not doing enough when somebody is reported), genuinely rule-breaking rudeness can also be reported for possible punitive action.

I do think social pressure and holding ourselves to a high standard of cordiality combined with judicious use of the tools we have control over as players will be more productive, but that doesn't mean MWM will tolerate genuine malfeasance. (And, lest we get lost on that subject, I'll close by reitterating: I don't think being elitist rises to this level of bad behavior. Just recognize that there will always be those who will have standards that are ridiculously exacting, and don't deal with them if it causes you problems.)

Do discuss ways mechanics might help mitigate, rather than encourage, player interaction problems, but don't make the mistake of assuming the mechanics are the sole cause of it nor that stripping them down would resolve them. It takes more delicacy than that, or it would be a solved problem by now!

Yup.

In large population games where one can hop from team to team easy, the "block them and move on" approach probably work decenly adequate for most situation. But in cases where population is low or teams are hard to come by for what ever reason, then it becomes block them and...now where am I moving onto. I just took myself out of the game for a while." Kind of end up like a self mute or back fire ignore. The rest will continue on like nothing happened and in fact they probably was acting a butt hoping that you would leave and make it look like it was your choice and none of their doing when brief look on the surface. Especially if they know too teams are hard to come by and thus they know by you blocking the mand moving on, ya really hurting ya self more than them because they will go on to complete the task while you are still standing around trying to form or join a team to do the task they just completed and would have completed too if ya just sat there and took their abuse.


 Now how is this solved? I don't know yet.  Maybe if someone is kicked or leave the team, the progress they was there for is still saved so they don't have to start over, due to someone being a jerk and using the block and move on thing. Of course that solution don't solve how they will get another team in the meantime. But hearing that it may be all one server anyways, suppose there was a way to see other teams that are also doing that TF and maybe have a spot open and the person could join?

Then again one server may make it easy to find another team and make the block and move on thing more effective and when people realize that the person that is leaving will not be hurt by leaving they may not be too much a jerk just to be jerks. But of course some will be jerks anyways. For some it seems to be in their nature or that is all they know how to be.

And yeah definitely if someone is breaking the rules, it should be dealt with. Even if the person can ignore them. Of course there is many jerk moves that are within the rules, but if it's one of those cases where it's not in the rules, then it should be dealt with. Because sometime perception is reality. If people see that "well hey, that guy broke at least half the rules and nothing happened to him. Then I can do so too." Then it seems the population of that type rule breaking behavior will grow.


One way to beat the jerks is to have enough non jerks. I don't mean non jerks that are not seen or only stick with their inner circle of friends or only pick up a newbie here and there. I mean be as visible as the jerks just without the jerk part. Because sometimes with jerks allowing them to be loud, even if they are not breaking the rules and in this case I'm talking about jerks that is not breaking the rules, they tend to speak loud and often and be very visible. Yet, if the non jerks stay silent, or simply shrug and accept it, then it will seem, that is how the community is. There is nothing wrong, IMO to tell someone else, hey, stop picking on the new guy or hey stop being a jerk. I don't see nothing wrong with that. It may not and actually more than likely wont stop the jerk but it let the target knows that not everyone is like that or condone that behavior. Instead of hearing about the nice people after when it's too late "Hey  I wasn't a jerk, back in I4 I once gave a new guy 4 million inf." That is nice, but did you voice the opinion against jerk like behavior when you seen it as quickly as saying not everyone is a jerk or as quickly as defending other points or as quickly as the guides that are built or as quickly as quipping about Mids? Did you emphasize with people who went though it even if ya never seen it or tel lthe person I didn't see it so it didn't happen. Stop whining and grow thicker skin.

Skin can only grow so thick before it become inflexible and callous. And having hard dry callous skin is neither attractive nor fun to have when it cracks and bleed and get infected. It usually make for a very angry bitter person especialy when they feel like they are alone. Which can result in them either finding a new game when they otherwise would have stayed, becoming a jerk themselves, or generally start becoming anti-social and look upon people with distrust and hard to get along with. And or sometimes start to lack empathy themselves even when it's time when we may actually need each other support like that one time not too long ago.

"It's hard to feel sorry for a group of people that didn't give a damn about me but now expect me to feel sorry for them? How can I? I did what they said and grew thicker skin. And now I feel nothing." -Ex-COX player.

Yeah some people an be over sensitive but what is over sensitive? Someone with thicker skin will always look at someone less thicker skin as over reacting. What don't bother one person, they will look bewildered at the people that it do bother and of course many times, tell them to grow thicker skin. Just like a couple of peole at least I know first hand that played COX, and some that didn't made up of various gamers that didn't see the big deal about the closing and one said that the community should grow thicker skin against how the game business works. Then what is the appropriate reaction. I think the appropriate reaction to things that are negative is what ever the person feel. Different things ticks off different people. Somethings I don't give a crap about is probably down right depressing and make them want to shrink and die. Should I tell them to grow a thicker skin? And somethings that drive me up the wall probably leave people scratching their heads wondering "what the hell is the big deal about that?" 

And thus that make jerks a bit more complicated because in their eyes they are usually reacting to something they see as a negative stimulus and react by being what can be viewed as being a jerk in various ways. Of course there are some that do it just for lulz, but that is totally different but similar, animal.

I guess that is the upside and downside of MMOs. People. Get enough people in the room probably one of them is going to be an idiot that do what ever they can to make sure everyone know it and have no doubts about it their role and purpose. As long as the rules are maintained and upheld, I guess the only thing the community can do is do it's best and each person do their part into forming the image that they want the community to be viewed as. Ran by jerks or ran by friendly people. Ran by friendly people that ain't afraid to tell the jerk to knock it off just as they are not afraid to show their expertise in the game mechanics? Or ran by jerks that friendly people hide from in their own little groups letting everyone outside defend for themselves?


If we are heroes, we suppose to defend those that cant defend for themselves.
If we are villains, no one pushes the weaklings around unless "I'm" (general terms) doing the pushing. 

AKA sometimes the community have to simply look out for one another.

*and I don't me you and like in you personally. I mean You in general.

[silvers1]

People were occasionally kicked for bad builds, but it was usually tanks with no mez protection, force fielders with no bubbles or characters with 12 powers from travel pools and nothing useful, not lack of purples or IOs.

Rarely ran into this myself, just one occurence.  Whatever they design, I hope it discourages this kind of behavior.  I do not like other people dictating builds or play styles to me.  Had enough of that in GW1.    The game design hopefully will not allow people to overly gimp their toons.

Several things I want to see:
1.  Builds and enhancements are private and cannot be viewed by other people.
2.  DPS meters should not be present in the game.  DPS is not the end-all to performance.
3.  The time investment to fully slot out a toon shouldnt be overly long.  I could usually get a character in CoH slotted to my specifications
within a couple of months.  I felt this was reasonable.
4.  Don't make TFs so difficult that it takes very tight team builds to accomplish.  I liked the flexibiliy inherent in CoH, and absolutely hate the
Tank/Healer/3 DPS requirement in most other games.

[Minotaur]

Rarely ran into this myself, just one occurence.  Whatever they design, I hope it discourages this kind of behavior.  I do not like other people dictating builds or play styles to me.  Had enough of that in GW1.    The game design hopefully will not allow people to overly gimp their toons.

Several things I want to see:
1.  Builds and enhancements are private and cannot be viewed by other people.
2.  DPS meters should not be present in the game.  DPS is not the end-all to performance.
3.  The time investment to fully slot out a toon shouldnt be overly long.  I could usually get a character in CoH slotted to my specifications
within a couple of months.  I felt this was reasonable.
4.  Don't make TFs so difficult that it takes very tight team builds to accomplish.  I liked the flexibiliy inherent in CoH, and absolutely hate the
Tank/Healer/3 DPS requirement in most other games.

1. Things like I outlined become very obvious fast, there is no point in concealing the build.
2. Agreed, and I would suggest not showing other peoples' damage in combat spam either
3. This is a difficult balancing act, shouldn't be too easy either
4. I have no problem making raid size instances require certain things although not a tight team build, but TFs should IMO be doable on basic difficulty with a wide variety

[silvers1]

1. Things like I outlined become very obvious fast, there is no point in concealing the build.

I think concealing the build is extremely important. 

Case in point:
While playing GW1, it became very obvious that certain cookie cutter builds were required.  When joining a dungeon group, you were usually
required to ping your build.  I had a healer that didnt follow the cookie cutter mold of either pure healer or pure damage  mitigator, and was kicked
off a number of teams.  The hybrid build worked fine for me, but didnt meet the criteria of other "expert" players.   The ability to see other players
builds gives the power to control other players builds ( i.e. you follow the cookie cutter build or else get /kicked as the "nub" )

[Segev]

Technically, regarding thick skin... if somebody is bitter and distant, they're just demonstrating chronically-bruised thin skin. Thick skin means letting it wash off your back without bothering you, not dismissing it bitterly.

It also doesn't mean failure to report rule-breaking.

It does mean not taking things personally, as much as is possible. It means being willing to move on from irritations.

It's not about shutting out the world's jerks; it's about getting revenge in the best way possible: by living well and not letting them have the satisfaction of getting to you.

[Manga]

What about both? 

The trouble I found with trying to have a "thick skin" is that quite a lot of jerks will realize they aren't getting through to you with words, and will move into direct harassment.  For instance accusing you of things that turn your teammates and/or SG-mates against you and possibly getting you kicked out.  No matter what you do, the real die-hard jerks will find a way to make your life miserable enough so you'll lose your temper.  In SWTOR, I've run into two of them that went as far as to manipulate the system - they had their guild-mates file multiple complaints with customer service so I would get a 3-day ban with no chance of appeal.  I guess they figured that would make me frustrated enough to quit (it didn't).

Those are a more extreme example, but all of the jerks/trolls have one thing in common:  The mindset that if you are not as tough as they are, you deserve to be abused until you're driven out.  Because nobody weaker than they are should be allowed to play their game.  It's a mindset that's prevalent in every single MMO...now.  CoH was for the most part the exception - it had a lot of helpful people - but it's gone now.

Where that applies to any new game like City of Titans is, there are certain factors which encourage that sort of behavior.  The "if you're not as tough as I am, quit" mindset.  The biggest factor encouraging that is making the build/enhancement system either very complicated/difficult, very expensive, or very grind-y.  Then you have people with lots of in-game money, or a hoard of equipment they spent weeks farming, or a guild/SG that did the same.  And if you aren't a member of their group, or you can't build as perfectly as they can, you are too weak and deserve to be harassed until you leave.  They start checking your build to see if you deserve to accompany them on a mission.  Take away some of those factors, and...it won't eliminate it, but there is less opportunity for that kind of behavior.

[Segev]

"No chance of appeal" on just the word of other players sounds like bad design of their punitive system. There should be sufficient logs for them to actually judge the validity of complaints, and when they get THAT many of them, it should trigger an actual investigation.

Well. I suppose we'll find out what the problems with that are when we get to that point of running it from the company side. Here's hoping we can do justice to our players!


I cannot, personally, understand the mindset that says "you should be harassed until you leave," particularly over being "too weak" compared to other players in PvE. Just don't team with such people if you feel they're not helping you enough. I don't think making the enhancement system too complex or what-have-you will encourage such mindsets, though; those kinds of jerks will make up reasons to victimize people out of whatever they can. Even if it's "they are playing a character who isn't at the maximum height allowed."

[JaguarX]

Technically, regarding thick skin... if somebody is bitter and distant, they're just demonstrating chronically-bruised thin skin. Thick skin means letting it wash off your back without bothering you, not dismissing it bitterly.

It also doesn't mean failure to report rule-breaking.

It does mean not taking things personally, as much as is possible. It means being willing to move on from irritations.

It's not about shutting out the world's jerks; it's about getting revenge in the best way possible: by living well and not letting them have the satisfaction of getting to you.

yup.

But remember in a social setting where people can become friends that go beyond the game in real life, and from what I understand in some cases even leading to marriage and love, more than likely the opposite feelings can be touched too even though that effect is usually ignored or expectation for people to not feel those. But how can one feel one and not the other? How can one feel connection with the people they play with but not feel the effects of the jerks? Because by definitions even the connections that people feel with one another even if positive is taking the feeling personally.

And don't forget sometimes jerks cause indirect irritation. In COX, A person is on a TF team. Someone is being a jerk. They leave the team to get away from the irritation of the jerk. But now, they have to deal with the irritation of having to start the TF over, meaning the time on the team just went down the tube and that alone can be varying irritation especially if one have limited game play time. Then the irritation of having to find another team to do said task they started out to do with the prior team. And the irritation of sometimes not being able to find another team for that task and thus another irritation of not being able to complete the task that they set out to do in that game set out to do all stemming from someone being a jerk.

Thick skin or not in that situation it looks like the jerk won and the target lost. Because the jerk, still complete the task they set out to do, two to rid of the target and three cause the target an inconvenience, and possibly four cause either direct or indirect irritation to the target and optional five, depending on view, punish the target for what ever perceived grievance they make up with loss of time.

Like I said, how is this solved completely, I'm not sure yet. But over all, it seems maybe the very nature of MMOs especially when teams are required coupled with teams being hard to come by for certain tasks gives the jerk a very good advantage while the target is basically expected to take it, "let it flow off the back" and do nothing. Then again, maybe that is why there is no solution to the problem. No interest in finding a solution as the solution is expected tha the target pay it no mind in the first place. Which can be good and bad. But remember closing the eyes to an issue or problem is a pretty certain way to make sure it doesn't go away and possibly feed it and cause it to grow. Because even if a jerk think they are not getting no reaction, they usually just don't simply give up, they keep going and going, and using sometimes, faults in the rule enforcement procedures to their advantage and getting innocent people banned that end up banned seemingly out of the blue simply because they never stated their case and let it roll off the back when they had the chance. Thus leaving nothing for the moderators to go off of especially in a setting where they are not keen on trying to hunt down chat logs unless there is a two way dispute, where they have the word of the jerk and maybe a few of their buddies and... no word from the target. Well then, the target end up getting banned simply for inaction. Of course that could be nullified in that case with a bit more strenuous moderation that is more interested in getting to the bottom of the issue instead of looking to simply taking the word for it regardless of how popular it is. Also I think a few thinks that could make it less powerful for jerks to cause direct or indirect irritation and make it easier for the person to have thick skin without suffering for it is don't have too much team gated stuff, pay attention to population fluctuations especially if there is team gated stuff, if something requires 8 man to do and it goes well with 200,000 people and many people are doing it, be ready to make adjustments when not as many people are interested in doing that tf or team gated task and or when population falls. Maybe an adjustment is needed to make it only require 4 people instead of 8. That way a person can have thick skin walk away and truly find another team and do the task they set out to do without having to go through extra hassle  due to the jerk. Make the rules clear and stick to them in the moderation .Meaning Rules are this and this and such and such may not be tolerated. without forgetting the second part. Mean it and show it isn't tolerated. Investigate thoroughly tickets that show up. If a person gets through a TF especially a team gated TF to a certain point even if they are kicked, they don't lose progress or they still get the reward when the original group finishes it. Thought about a Jerk Board. But I think that may be too open to abuse and may do more harm than good. Maybe make kicking from the team not be a one man dictator ship. Maybe make it be voting based although, this too may not work too well for "popular jerks" and may be abused and used against people who not jerks but not popular. And there are probably more ideas that may give jerks less power over people while leaving the only power to the target is to grow thicker skin and ignore it.

Plus in a ideal world sure nothing would be taken personally. But just as it's expected that people should grow thicker skin because they should expect jerks, there should be an expectation that some people don't grow thick skin very easily and or have thick skin pertaining to many or most situations but not all situations. Why should people have to grow thicker skin? Why should people expect jerks to not be around? It's an immovable object (thick skin) meets the unstoppable force (jerks) but it seems the immovable object is expected to yield to the unstoppable force. And quite frankly, I'm not sure of any other way that it can be done. I guess with the very nature of MMO, it's a jerk's world where they hold the power, and only defense from them is growing thicker skin and running away from them. I mean what else can a person do especially if the jerk isn't breaking the rules?

[Manga]

I don't think making the enhancement system too complex or what-have-you will encourage such mindsets, though; those kinds of jerks will make up reasons to victimize people out of whatever they can. Even if it's "they are playing a character who isn't at the maximum height allowed."

That's true, but making the enhancement/equipping system complicated gives them the tools they need to make it stick.  In CoH, nobody could see how your character was equipped - they could see the powers you selected, but that's all.  There are other games where other players can see in detail what powers you have, how many points you allocated to them, and the armor and armor levels you carry.  They can much more easily make a decision about you in those games than they could in CoH, so they have more tools to use to judge you and treat you badly.

There will always be jerks and trolls, the object (in part) in making a game is to cause them to become no more than a verbal annoyance.

[JaguarX]

There will always be jerks and trolls, the object (in part) in making a game is to cause them to become no more than a verbal annoyance.

indeed.

[Second Chances]

But remember in a social setting where people can become friends that go beyond the game in real life, and from what I understand in some cases even leading to marriage and love, more than likely the opposite feelings can be touched too even though that effect is usually ignored or expectation for people to not feel those. But how can one feel one and not the other? How can one feel connection with the people they play with but not feel the effects of the jerks?

Well, it takes two to tango, both for the positive and negative cases. The immediate reaction or impulse you feel is not something you have a lot of control over, but what you do with it is.

In the positive case you are describing, there's no mystery about why folks would happily pursue growing connections with the other people. It is a little more mysterious why people would continue to expose themselves to a clearly negative relationship in a game, when they have the means to avoid it. We probably all know cases of it happening, but the mystery is why.

[JaguarX]

Well, it takes two to tango, both for the positive and negative cases. The immediate reaction or impulse you feel is not something you have a lot of control over, but what you do with it is.

In the positive case you are describing, there's no mystery about why folks would happily pursue growing connections with the other people. It is a little more mysterious why people would continue to expose themselves to a clearly negative relationship in a game, when they have the means to avoid it. We probably all know cases of it happening, but the mystery is why.

You are correct in hitting the nail.

but in a way, the only way to actually avoid it, the negative aspects is to simply not play the game, which stills come at the expense of enjoyment and the positive side. Basically, usually people don't go out seeking jerks like they seek out friends online and other positive relationship. Usually the jerks come to them. And usually a jerk is and will continue to be a jerk regardless of what the other party do. A person can tango by themselves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43QWyKAlXI4

Except in the case of jerks, instead of tangoing they are bumping and grinding on unwilling person with the expectation it's the target that is expected to leave the establishment.

But I know what you mean by avoid.

The mystery of why they do is a bit too common of a question for me. Because eventually, there is no where else to run besides out of the game, which is still a win and maybe the goal of the jerk.
I can think of a potential reason why-

Some people eventually get tired of running. Because no matter where they run they eventually will either run into another jerk or the same jerk again and sometimes worse than before. Especially if the jerk know that person will simply flee. Then they know they can use it, the knowing the person will flee, to their advantage. Now when they don't want someone around, they simply act a fool, and no one will hold them accountable. It's the target's fault and should run...again. A jerk only want IO people to team with and join a team with some one without IOs. Now all they have to do is make a fuss  and the non-IO person is expected to leave. And thus, the goal of the jerk is fulfilled. They don't want someone in the same zone with them, they repeat, act a fool with the person, and it's up to the target to leave the zone. In reality the jerk have more control over the people they want around in certain areas than the target does because it's not expected in the norms for the jerk to leave. No one seem to say, "Hey buddy, if you are going to be a jerk about it, why not find another team or another zone." It's to the target, "Don't like him being a jerk, leave the zone or find another team."  Even when the target say they should have to put up with that to be in the zone or team, they get no backing because it's expected that they should be the one to leave. While the jerk's presence is unquestioned and undisputed but the targets; presence is automatically disputed when someone wants to be a jerk towards them for what ever reason.


But the million dollar question to me is Why is it expected for the target to run? Some partial theories I have is that being a jerk is an expected normal behavior in MMO games. It's just as normal as say friendly people in the game. Both cases not much can be nor willingly be done about it. Both people kind of look upon it with more of apathy and look towards to target to move either towards or away from it with the perceived cause and fault of the outcome resting on the target's shoulder's. Both seem to be perceived as merely an environmental factor of being an MMO instead of behavior from a person with the only behavior that matters is the behavior of the target in whether or not they move towards or away from the friendliness or the jerk. And both seemed to be viewed as something that wont or cant be changed. And neither one can be totally avoided as a friendly person or a jerk can walk up to a person and act accordingly but when something is spoken about it the focus is still on the target as if they are talking about the day or night. But still the question remains is why? Which I suspect is a question without an answer in the virtual world. In person to person in real life, it's more simple answered that no, it's the jerk that should leave if they don't want to behave. "When they feel like acting civil they can return." Like the bumping and grinding guy/gal I mentioned above. In real life, they probably would catch the attention of the bouncers and thrown out. In the virtual world, bring that behavior up to the bouncers they will tell you to beat it if you don't like it.  In the virtual world it's flipped around and it's the social norm although.

Not saying the way it works in the virtual world is a bad thing, I just find it interesting. And surprised no one (that I know up) did a deep study in  the lines of sociology and psychology on this.

[Minotaur]

That's true, but making the enhancement/equipping system complicated gives them the tools they need to make it stick.  In CoH, nobody could see how your character was equipped - they could see the powers you selected, but that's all. 

This is not true at all, you could also see the IO set bonuses, which if you knew the game well would tell you what sets were being used.

[LaughingAlex]

Rarely ran into this myself, just one occurence.  Whatever they design, I hope it discourages this kind of behavior.  I do not like other people dictating builds or play styles to me.  Had enough of that in GW1.    The game design hopefully will not allow people to overly gimp their toons.

Several things I want to see:
1.  Builds and enhancements are private and cannot be viewed by other people.
2.  DPS meters should not be present in the game.  DPS is not the end-all to performance.
3.  The time investment to fully slot out a toon shouldnt be overly long.  I could usually get a character in CoH slotted to my specifications
within a couple of months.  I felt this was reasonable.
4.  Don't make TFs so difficult that it takes very tight team builds to accomplish.  I liked the flexibiliy inherent in CoH, and absolutely hate the
Tank/Healer/3 DPS requirement in most other games.

Agree with #1, as I heard many people often had catch-22 requirements in world of warcraft.  I actually saw catch-22 requirements first-hand in guild wars, and it made some gametypes in pvp 100% unjoinable for people wanting to join.

#2 is also true, dps is not the only thing and it should not be the only thing determining a victory.  The smash alerts in CO are a definition of what not to do, it's a dps race and teams with less then X DPS per minute will always automatically lose with zero chance of success, it's not fun, and the random team nature made it fake difficulty untill they changed smash to provide resources(so lowbies wouldn't enter and make everyone automatically lose).

#3 is true as well, I hate that many mmorpgs make it all about how much time you spend playing rather than actual accomplishment.  Given I felt even CoH made you take a lot of time but it went faster and it was more efficient when you were better at the game.  Even the incarnate system rewarded skill and accomplishment more(the harder the trial, the better your odds of a better reward).  Most MMORPGs it's flat amount of time spent, with a very very very small % drop reward, and they wonder why they fail.

#4 though is so true of MMORPGs it's sickening how many fail that.  The holy trinity requirement most mmorpgs fall into is 90% of the time, a result of a lack of alternatives because they simply do not provide anything meaningfully powerful enough to provide an alternative to healing a tank all the time.  There is no depth or flexibility because they are designed so tanks have ALL the damage mitigation, while no other class has it nore can provide it to allies.  This means the tank has to take all the agro, and since he cannot heal himself, the healer has to babysit him and the rest of the team.  And I actually get deeply angry when someone praises the healer, especially if they say "Special nod to the healers who kept our health high and everyone alive", even more-so when I saw people dying alot.  It just, angers me the healer gets ALL THE CREDIT while the rest of the team gets none at all in every encounter.

[thunderforce]

#3 is true as well, I hate that many mmorpgs make it all about how much time you spend playing rather than actual accomplishment.  Given I felt even CoH made you take a lot of time

It didn't always. I know I keep going on about this, but; City of Heroes didn't always reward grind. It doesn't have to be this way.

[saipaman]

Given how many "speed" events there were in the game, I agree with you.

[JaguarX]

Given how many "speed" events there were in the game, I agree with you.

yup.

[Second Chances]

The mystery of why they do is a bit too common of a question for me. Because eventually, there is no where else to run besides out of the game, which is still a win and maybe the goal of the jerk.
I can think of a potential reason why-

Some people eventually get tired of running. Because no matter where they run they eventually will either run into another jerk or the same jerk again and sometimes worse than before. Especially if the jerk know that person will simply flee.

I avoided people who took an unpleasant interest (people who were pleasant didn't bug me, and sometimes gave pointers I might be able to use) in the details of my build in CoX, whenever the opportunity presented itself, and yet about the only activities that closed off for me were things I had no interest in, anyway (like speed ITFs and srs bsns farms). For anything else, the most I had to do was leave an individual team. If the person who was judging me had the star, I had no problem with them setting requirements, even if I thought they were incorrect (I'd state my case, but if they still wanted X or Y, then so be it). If they didn't have the star and persisted, I'd ask the team if they wanted me to go. Usually they would say, "no, don't listen to ____... he is a <bleep!>" and that was pretty much that. Sometimes they agreed with _____, in which case I was happy to leave.

Why was I happy to do so? From my perspective, jerks are so eager to identify themselves that it is almost like they are required by law to do so (sort like how medieval stories will feature lepers having to shout warnings to people to stay away... "Outcast! Unclean!"). Since they are nice enough to clearly warn me they are jerks, I will take advantage of that warning.

If I was to stay on a team where I wasn't wanted, I would only exacerbate a bad situation (I'd become part of the problem). Plus, why should I stick with a team that doesn't want me when there is bound to be one that does? Or, better yet, I can start a team myself so I know the star will be willing to put up with me. :3  In any case, I get to avoid hanging out with a jerk, so win.

Now, if we are talking about something more serious than having different opinions than I do about builds, IOW something I'd think they should be reported for, I do that as well. If I feel obligated to put my $0.02 in about something they are saying, I do that. But, once those obligations are done, so am I. If it is a forum, I stop replying (if all I would be doing is repeating myself); if it is ingame, I stop paying attention to them (and if that is not enough, I'll /ignore them).

I definitely don't pursue a deeper relationship with them, since they are jerks, and they have done their part by giving me notice that they are jerks. I loved when CoX added the ability to add stars and a comment to players, since it let me easily identify them in the future, as well (As a side benefit, if I had taken the time to produce a properly snarky note, I got to enjoy it again ^_^7 ).

But the million dollar question to me is Why is it expected for the target to run?

To me, that is an easy one. I realize you are talking about why other folks expect it, but since I don't think in those terms my answer will be why I expect it of myself. It is because, while I have no control over other people to make them do what I think people should do, I do have control over whether I do what I think people should do. How can I have any expectation about the behavior of others if I won't do it myself? If I don't behave like a jerk, and they do, there will be people who can tell the difference.

The side benefit of that control realization is that it comes with the realization that they have no control over me, either. If I end up bowing out of something for the reasons I gave up above, a jerk might consider that "running" but, given that they have already given me ample evidence that their opinions are not mine, why should I care what they think? They will go on being jerks, of course, but there was never anything I could do about that (and, frankly, I think they end up paying for it over and over again in their lives).

Now, if CoT ends up having srs bsns raiding, that may be another activity that I would have to avoid. imo, the thing that inspires interest in others gear isn't so much the availability of the info as it is the belief that they are doing something hardcore enough that they are justified in being picky. In CoX that belief was often misguided (and therefore was not common, at least on the five or so servers I played), but for fancy raid games I could see how they would care.

[JaguarX]

I avoided people who took an unpleasant interest (people who were pleasant didn't bug me, and sometimes gave pointers I might be able to use) in the details of my build in CoX, whenever the opportunity presented itself, and yet about the only activities that closed off for me were things I had no interest in, anyway (like speed ITFs and srs bsns farms). For anything else, the most I had to do was leave an individual team. If the person who was judging me had the star, I had no problem with them setting requirements, even if I thought they were incorrect (I'd state my case, but if they still wanted X or Y, then so be it). If they didn't have the star and persisted, I'd ask the team if they wanted me to go. Usually they would say, "no, don't listen to ____... he is a <bleep!>" and that was pretty much that. Sometimes they agreed with _____, in which case I was happy to leave.

Why was I happy to do so? From my perspective, jerks are so eager to identify themselves that it is almost like they are required by law to do so (sort like how medieval stories will feature lepers having to shout warnings to people to stay away... "Outcast! Unclean!"). Since they are nice enough to clearly warn me they are jerks, I will take advantage of that warning.

If I was to stay on a team where I wasn't wanted, I would only exacerbate a bad situation (I'd become part of the problem). Plus, why should I stick with a team that doesn't want me when there is bound to be one that does? Or, better yet, I can start a team myself so I know the star will be willing to put up with me. :3  In any case, I get to avoid hanging out with a jerk, so win.

Now, if we are talking about something more serious than having different opinions than I do about builds, IOW something I'd think they should be reported for, I do that as well. If I feel obligated to put my $0.02 in about something they are saying, I do that. But, once those obligations are done, so am I. If it is a forum, I stop replying (if all I would be doing is repeating myself); if it is ingame, I stop paying attention to them (and if that is not enough, I'll /ignore them).

I definitely don't pursue a deeper relationship with them, since they are jerks, and they have done their part by giving me notice that they are jerks. I loved when CoX added the ability to add stars and a comment to players, since it let me easily identify them in the future, as well (As a side benefit, if I had taken the time to produce a properly snarky note, I got to enjoy it again ^_^7 ).

To me, that is an easy one. I realize you are talking about why other folks expect it, but since I don't think in those terms my answer will be why I expect it of myself. It is because, while I have no control over other people to make them do what I think people should do, I do have control over whether I do what I think people should do. How can I have any expectation about the behavior of others if I won't do it myself? If I don't behave like a jerk, and they do, there will be people who can tell the difference.

The side benefit of that control realization is that it comes with the realization that they have no control over me, either. If I end up bowing out of something for the reasons I gave up above, a jerk might consider that "running" but, given that they have already given me ample evidence that their opinions are not mine, why should I care what they think? They will go on being jerks, of course, but there was never anything I could do about that (and, frankly, I think they end up paying for it over and over again in their lives).

Now, if CoT ends up having srs bsns raiding, that may be another activity that I would have to avoid. imo, the thing that inspires interest in others gear isn't so much the availability of the info as it is the belief that they are doing something hardcore enough that they are justified in being picky. In CoX that belief was often misguided (and therefore was not common, at least on the five or so servers I played), but for fancy raid games I could see how they would care.

Very good answer there.


But how common these things, like how picky people are, is pretty relative. Some people that never go beyond teaming with people they know and only team with other SG members and or other people like them, may never see the picky people or the others and think in their mind it's not common or never happened because they never seen it since they been playing since beta on all servers. Yet someone else may see them and may have been playing just as long or in some cases even shorter, the picky people, constantly and it seems more like a common behavior in their eyes and those that say it never happened or it wasn't common or in many cases, "well no one ever seen a problem with it." may come off as dismissive to those that actually went through that while those that say it common may seem like they are exaggerating to the people that never come across that stuff from people.


But eventually, playing ostrich will stop working. Because just because one doesn't see the predator doesn't mean the predator doesn't see the prey. Which is one the reasons why I think the ignore function definitely should be revamped and upgraded from the usual, now the target cant see the offender. BUT the offender can still see the target and keep it up like nothing happened. Usually because the offender have no idea they been placed on ignore, don't care if the person reply or not and if the target don't reply it make it even easier because then they can say what ever they want knowing the target wont fire back and still attack what ever the target writes. The only one with the blindfold on is the target with the current ignore feature. It should be if the person places a person ignored, the offender cannot see them either. The offender cant attack  a person's words that they cant see or interact with. Eventually, the offender may find out, "hey this conversation don't make sense, and why do there seem to be people missing? They may get a hint that they are losing power and less targets. Because when they can do stuff without anything happening to them. Even in the example on the team where the team mates asked should you go, the reply was, nah don't listen to him. Yet, no one made a move against the person? Yet, you had to leave if they said yes they agree? AKA the question is how is the ignore function hurting those types of people? I remember back in the day with the old fashioned one dimensional trolls, yes ignore worked wonders but most of them evolved and a bit more sophisticated yet the tools of the trolls evolved from club to fire arms while the tools given to defend against them is still in the club phase. It's about time to take stuff away from the offenders. If they choose a target and be a jerk, well fine then, it should be they cant see them, cant talk to them, cant see what they write, and cant even contact them in any manner if they get placed on ignore. Instead of the  current way. Someone pick a fight, and the target simply places a blind fold and ear plugs in. That do not stop the punches. It just make you blind and deaf to them but it don't stop. And since the only defense is head in the sand as it stand with the ignore, that kind of encourage the offender. Because there is no risk to them. They can lay it on thick with no risk of someone firing back and in the end they getting angry instead of the target. Playing dead do not work for most animals. Most will still simply eat ya, even if a person close their eyes. I think ignore should be a more powerful weapon against those people. Press ignore, boom they cant see ya cant touch you, cant buff ya cant debuff ya, cant speak to you, cant see what you write, cant even friend ya, nor invite ya, challenge you to a duel. And what would be icing on the cake would be if they cant even see your avatar at all as if you don't even exist anymore to them and still at the same time, they are invisible to the person that have them on the ignore list. AKA making it two way instead of just one way.

Because even the negative social events have and effect it seems. Not sure why yet, but how many times have someone even within these forums said they couldnt get into CO because the community didn't seem as friendly. Or in other games, because it was full of trolls (usually said about WoW). and other games due to negative people behavior. Behavior that is said to be easily ignored, yet it was enough to completely drive them away from the game. So it seem to have some sort of effect that ignore just doesn't solve.

[thunderforce]

Given how many "speed" events there were in the game, I agree with you.

Speed events, nothing. I'm talking about the game before Issue 9.