Author Topic: Icon question!  (Read 14371 times)

alphajaybo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • The one The only Alpha Protocol V2.9
Icon question!
« on: January 08, 2014, 07:49:57 PM »
Now i know CodeWalker said that icon would be nothing more than a way to look at maps and run around the city, essentially run around a ghost town with no interactions nothing. So i've got a question could combat and perhaps solo play be added to icon, if it is possible would it be easy.
Daoc CoH and WoW

Tacitala

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 157
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2014, 11:50:04 PM »
Unfortunately neither will be possible with Icon, since they both would need a server.
"And I, of course, am innocent of all but malice."
- Princess Fiona of Amber

Arachnion

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
  • Professional Cynic
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 12:07:40 AM »
Just wait for S.C.o.R.E (Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers for reference) to go public, which will happen in a few years most likely.

We all miss the game dearly.

I'm just glad we even have Icon, the costume creator and maps + npcs is a godsend for my nerdy tinkering nature.

Not that my nerdy nature ever really produces much other than techy research threads (Costume File Formats) or guides/icon help, still..

:)
I'm all dressed up with nowhere to go
Walkin' with a dead man over my shoulder

Waiting for an invitation to arrive
Goin' to a party where no one's still alive

Azrael

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 01:08:21 AM »
Now i know CodeWalker said that icon would be nothing more than a way to look at maps and run around the city, essentially run around a ghost town with no interactions nothing. So i've got a question could combat and perhaps solo play be added to icon, if it is possible would it be easy.

I understand how you feel.  We all do.  Feel very vociferous about the lack of 'solo' play to Coh when I gave NC Soft the best part of a grand to play.  And yes.  I bought the game itself x3 times!  Regardless of the contracted long silver spoon to sit with the devil nature contract of Morg games...I won't be playing anymore morgs unless there's a safe guard of a solo version should the company or community collapse.  I feel I deserve a solo version at the least for my substantial investment.  It's ridiculous to have nothing to show.  I basically 'rented' my time with Coh.  Bah.

Take a game like Unreal Tournament.  I could play solo.  Local Lan.  Or online.  That's a fair deal.  This move to get people all 'clouded' is nothing more than hostage to fortune.  I don't like it.  I smell it for what it is.

Now, back to Icon.  A great piece of work by Code Warrior allowed life due to the nature in which Coh was designed?  (Solo player with Morg capability built in?  Not sure on that one.)  But we do have the legendary character creator.  We do have maps!  The best (!) part of 8000(?) NPCs.  Movs.  All the power effects appear(?) to be in there too.  And in demo mode...you can see all the 'spawn' points that some server code would generate, procedurally (?) onto outdoor maps and (?) indoor maps?  To me that makes the hard part of any reverse engineering work done.  It's not like they have to redo any map artworks/design or recode the character creator from scratch.  All the art assets and physics seem to be in the game.

However, that doesn't (from what I can tell..) mean that knocking out a server is easy.  I guess mapping out the game client apis is easy.  Just 'look at the code.'

But the server side 'client'?  Well, unless somebody gave a copy of that with all the missions, A.I intelligence of mobs, specific procedural routines...that 'spark of life' code call...to a member of the rebel alliance...to reverse engineer...then.

Well, they're flying in the dark.  You're replicating assumed server protocol to make calls to the assets in the game client.  That's...erm...'guessing.'  And that's trial and error.

I'd like to think the 'S.C.O.R.E' cabal that doesn't exist ;) has at least got a test mob with a test alt firing some 'test' powers.  Who is to say they have got that far.

What we have been told so far...is that a lot of time has been spent re-writing and re-editing of game client code has been under taken to work with 'written from scratch' server capability.  eg.  Coming up with a server is 'easy' in Valience because the author/team are building the game client and server from scratch or from a known element(s) or developer kit.

Coh's code was proprietary and went through several evolutions as bits like the A.E and other big patches were added to it over the years.  Archaic?  Or merely progression.

Either way the game client apis can be looked at...but they'll need to be 'edited' to work from a server emulating the necessary functionality from scratch.  I guess they weren't handed a brown paper envelope from a disgruntled Paragon employee.  Nor would they admit to it.  And even if they had it...would still need the code to be re-edited.  But they don't and coming up with stuff from scratch takes time.

Though Coh wasn't cutting edge...it was a ten year old game with loads of code.  It's not quite the same as emulating those old C64 games I loved so well.  it's a comparative beast of code I should imagine.

Plus I'm guessing this secret cabal is doing this part time.

I'm guessing at an alpha Coh by this coming November.  A loooooong beta period for 2015.  We're looking at another year before we even have the 'spark' of life?

Azrael.

PS.  Look elsewhere in the mega Icon thread for an authoritative post by Code Warrior for what Icon IS and what it ISN'T.  Have a server emulated project is tough but it's just code at the end of the day and clever people (we can only assume... ) are working on this and it's a matter of time.  But it IS a matter of time.  And that means patience.  Year at least to probably two years worth of patience just to get to some beta server I'd vouch.

Paragon had a studio of how many developers working on Coh and it took them time to do things.  Re-writing a server?  I'm not sure it's something even they could just 'knock out.'  And they had the server code.  Icon is great news.  We had nothing.  Well, just our clients.  Now we have icon and can explore the client, create alts.  Explore.  That spark of life is is tricky to get right because it involved guess work and assumed replication to plug into the game client.  Clever coders will probably be able to tackle it in time...if they fancy a challenge. ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 01:17:03 AM by Azrael »

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 09:07:26 AM »
So i've got a question could combat and perhaps solo play be added to icon, if it is possible would it be easy.
No, because the Cabal's time is better spent on getting combat working in the replacement server. The client does not have functionality to run combat or enemy AI, it depends on the server telling it what happens.
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Nebularian

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 167
    • Voyages of Imagination
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 03:29:29 PM »
I have to chime in on this one.   I was playing around with ICON the other night (I love it...use it to create visualizations of my Fan-fiction characters) and was running around Atlas when it occurred to me that we might NOT have to have sever side stuff for everything.  Do we really need it for the powers?  We can see them activated during creation...so probably not.   We can fly in Atlas....

Now if we had to have MISSIONS....yeah...probably.   But what about simple street sweeps?  Couldn't that all be done client side?
(@Nebularian)(AKA Dylan Clearbrook) Champion/Virtue - Nebularian/Sgt. Raines/Nurse Darklight/Cosmicana-Cosmicella/Mercy Vengeance/Angel Sprite/Suzy Uzi/Blue Arc/Dark Carolyne 
 Website: The Continuum Worlds

alphajaybo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • The one The only Alpha Protocol V2.9
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 05:32:12 PM »
I have to chime in on this one.   I was playing around with ICON the other night (I love it...use it to create visualizations of my Fan-fiction characters) and was running around Atlas when it occurred to me that we might NOT have to have sever side stuff for everything.  Do we really need it for the powers?  We can see them activated during creation...so probably not.   We can fly in Atlas....

Now if we had to have MISSIONS....yeah...probably.   But what about simple street sweeps?  Couldn't that all be done client side?

Thats what i was thinking, Not all Mobs and possibly missions. could have just been stored in server files. Atleast some of the mobs, and combat power animations ect had to be client side
Daoc CoH and WoW

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 05:50:10 PM »
Almost all the game data is stored in the client. However, to do anything with the way the client is set up, the client has to talk to a server. Period. Codewalker has already said no, it can't/won't work, so why doubt the person who made it?
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

alphajaybo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • The one The only Alpha Protocol V2.9
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 06:17:38 PM »
Almost all the game data is stored in the client. However, to do anything with the way the client is set up, the client has to talk to a server. Period. Codewalker has already said no, it can't/won't work, so why doubt the person who made it?

Never said i was doubting i just asked if there was a possibility of being able to play a variant of CoH offline using the client....
Daoc CoH and WoW

Nebularian

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 167
    • Voyages of Imagination
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 07:42:49 PM »
Almost all the game data is stored in the client. However, to do anything with the way the client is set up, the client has to talk to a server. Period. Codewalker has already said no, it can't/won't work, so why doubt the person who made it?

Actually, I do not recall seeing some of the things discussed in this thread brought up (if they were, I missed it).  Naturally we know that there were things that could not be done that required the server.   I do not believe anyone has expressed "doubt" towards Codewalker. 

I don't even think that it has been suggested/demanded that Codewalker do these things. 

What I believe this thread is about is discovering if there are things that CAN be done without the server.   If so....what would it take to do it? 

Nothing wrong at all with asking questions and exploring possibilities.
(@Nebularian)(AKA Dylan Clearbrook) Champion/Virtue - Nebularian/Sgt. Raines/Nurse Darklight/Cosmicana-Cosmicella/Mercy Vengeance/Angel Sprite/Suzy Uzi/Blue Arc/Dark Carolyne 
 Website: The Continuum Worlds

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 08:41:24 PM »
What I believe this thread is about is discovering if there are things that CAN be done without the server.   If so....what would it take to do it?
In theory the client can visually show you anything the original game could.  In practice, however, what you need to do that is something that can send the right signals to the game client to make those things happen, which is something on the same level of complexity as a replacement game server.

Think of the game client as a puppet, and the game server as the puppeteer.  When we lost the game servers, we lost the puppeteer and all the puppet strings were cut.  You're asking what the puppet can do without the puppeteer.  In theory, everything it could do before.  In practice, very little.  What Icon did was give us a stick connected to a couple of the strings, so we can now make the puppet stand up and maybe make it lurch forward.  But even getting it to wave is almost impossible with what we have, because we don't even have anything connected to the strings attached to his hands.

And even if Icon 2.0 gives us more strings, what the puppet can do is not just based on how many strings we reattach, but also on the new puppeteer.  If there's no server and all Icon does is give us commands that can do what the server did, we'd still have to actually do it: we'd have to replace the choreography of the original servers.  Just shooting a power at a target and hitting hit *visually* required pulling on a dozen strings in the right order at the right time, and you'd have to know how to do that because the client doesn't.  And separate from that, you'd have to keep track of how much health the target has and whether it should die because once again, the client doesn't know that.  To the client, damage was the server saying "please display some floating numbers here" and "change this green bar's length."  The client had no actual knowledge of the mechanics or the numbers of combat at all.  Not even a little.

If Icon 2.0 gives us back all the strings, Icon 3.0 would have to somehow package complete sequences of events that could be triggered by the player, and Icon 4.0 would have to somehow allow players to track the combat state of entities as a separate module to at least compute the numbers for combat and show them.  And by then, you'd have already written the basics of a replacement server.  That's probably why there will likely be limits on what Icon will eventually allow you to do.  At the point where the total amount of work begins to rival making a new server, I suspect you'll never see that feature implemented in Icon for obvious reasons - the work would be better spent writing a replacement server.

alphajaybo

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 51
  • The one The only Alpha Protocol V2.9
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 10:00:45 PM »
Ahh ok... So CoH  really didn't want making emulators a easy job!
Daoc CoH and WoW

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 08:13:55 AM »
I have to chime in on this one.   I was playing around with ICON the other night (I love it...use it to create visualizations of my Fan-fiction characters) and was running around Atlas when it occurred to me that we might NOT have to have sever side stuff for everything.  Do we really need it for the powers?  We can see them activated during creation...so probably not.   We can fly in Atlas....

Now if we had to have MISSIONS....yeah...probably.   But what about simple street sweeps?  Couldn't that all be done client side?
Power ANIMATIONS are stored in the client, yes. The LOGIC behind their actual effect was implemented strictly server-side. Without the server the client can pretty much run movement code (without that your every single step would have to be synchronized with the server... NOT very practical vs checking once every few seconds) and display power animations (kind of a pre-requisite for demo playback).
Thats what i was thinking, Not all Mobs and possibly missions. could have just been stored in server files. Atleast some of the mobs, and combat power animations ect had to be client side
*sigh* That's content. Not the logic that runs it. There's nothing to actually run the enemies client-side.
Ahh ok... So CoH  really didn't want making emulators a easy job!
Actually, that's just basic principles pretty much every MMO adheres to.
What I believe this thread is about is discovering if there are things that CAN be done without the server.   If so....what would it take to do it? 
Power animations might be doable, if only just. But that's all. Also, if it was done then the peanut gallery would start moaning that their mechanical effects are nonfunctional.
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 09:23:30 AM »
Ahh ok... So CoH  really didn't want making emulators a easy job!
There's nothing in the design of CoH that makes it particularly difficult or particularly easy.  If anything, its marginally easier to do for CoH in the sense that separate from the literal code implementation, the behavior of CoH on a deep technical level is well understood by many players outside the original dev team.  Probably far better than any other playerbase understands any other MMO.

Azrael

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 10:57:52 PM »
In theory the client can visually show you anything the original game could.  In practice, however, what you need to do that is something that can send the right signals to the game client to make those things happen, which is something on the same level of complexity as a replacement game server.

Think of the game client as a puppet, and the game server as the puppeteer.  When we lost the game servers, we lost the puppeteer and all the puppet strings were cut.  You're asking what the puppet can do without the puppeteer.  In theory, everything it could do before.  In practice, very little. 

The client had no actual knowledge of the mechanics or the numbers of combat at all.  Not even a little.

I suspect you'll never see that feature implemented in Icon for obvious reasons - the work would be better spent writing a replacement server.

Arcana.  A great post worthy of the 'great' Coh community. 

I'm not a coder (did a bit of 'basic' on an old Commodore PET and I had no idea what I was doing then!) and it's hard for some to get their head around why a 5 gig game 'client' won't just 'work.'  It's not just one program.  Coh was, as you and others on this thread...have explained...is, rather TWO(!) separate programs to a degree.  Puppet (Client) and Puppet Master (Server.)

Your analogy to a puppet was excellent and well explained.  (I've been trying to get my head around it...and I suspect that's why some still ask questions about how far Icon can go.  But Code Warrior has made that abundantly clear on the 'mega thread.') 

If the game client is the 'looks' the server is the 'brains.'  All the 'data' for the graphics, character creator, interface, maps, npcs, interior missions maps...even the powers are in there...BUT...

...unless the server says 'Load this map.  Load this mission.  Here's the data for that mission.  Here's the mobs for that mission.  If user presses this butting...display this power from client...if said power hits mob...then display this damage...and display health bar/stamina accordingly.'  etc.  UNLESS the server tells the client to do something.  It won't.  It's like a fully articulated 'puppet' awaiting the logic or spark of life from the 'puppet master.'

Or to put it another way?  Icon is like a Body without a Brain. :P

Body (client) needs a brain (server) to operate it.  (Tell me I'm getting close to the penny dropping.)  It's pretty hard for some of us to get our head around...because we only installed a client and saw it as 'one' program...when it is more like a bicycle wheel...with a hub...spokes going off to the outer wheel.  Or a car without a driver.  Feel free to add the anaologies.

But basically, the A.I or the instructions come from the server and the client (Coh) just acts like a dum terminal even thought it's got all the game 'data' to all that we saw and played.

That said, I guess the game client doesn't have the mission data stored in the client?  That was supplied server side as part of the brains?  Along with combat and A.I of the mobs?  Which means...

...the secret cabal would need to look at Wiki Coh to get the mobs , mission objectives and even retype the text in the contact dialogue boxes?  With 8000 npcs in Coh that's a lot of mission content to recapture? So you'd only end up with approximated guesswork from the available Wiki info..?

So, the missions, AI, mob generation and combat were all server side?  Still, the Coh community understood the combat numbers and how combat worked better than most it has been said on this thread.  Probably true.

Hmm.  That's ALOT of work.

I want to know though.   Does AEON have a private server?  If so, how did it manage it?  And how long did it take?  I didn't think it was as popular a game as Coh?

Azrael.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2014, 11:22:49 PM »
That said, I guess the game client doesn't have the mission data stored in the client?  That was supplied server side as part of the brains?  Along with combat and A.I of the mobs?  Which means...

...the secret cabal would need to look at Wiki Coh to get the mobs , mission objectives and even retype the text in the contact dialogue boxes?  With 8000 npcs in Coh that's a lot of mission content to recapture? So you'd only end up with approximated guesswork from the available Wiki info..?

So, the missions, AI, mob generation and combat were all server side?
There's data, and there's data.

For example, all the data for how powers work was embedded in the game client.  Yes, I wasn't that good of a guesser truth be told.  In fact my version of the powers database that I extracted from the game client was often better than the one the devs had to deal with in certain respects.  Some of that data had to be there for the client to be able to do certain things involving displaying things, and the rest was just shoved in there to make Real Numbers work circa I11ish.

But while the client knows that Energy Blast triggers XYZ animation and uses ABC visual FX and does scale 1.64 damage etc etc etc its all Chinese to the game client.  It has the data so it can show the data to the player, and it can use that data if the game servers tell it to, but it doesn't understand that data without server-side commands.  *I* can look at the data and tell you how Power Blast worked.  But its just bits to the client.

Now animations and animation sequeners - that data is in the game client *and* the client knows what to do with it.  Send the right bits to the animation system, and the game client can take over and do the rest, processing those bits into a starting animation, play that animation, determine the next animation in that sequence, play that, and so on.  That's why Icon can play animations more or less without the game servers.  The game client has map data and knows how to display a 3D map environment, so Icon can load maps more or less.  And physics is something the game client has more or less full control over, so things like gravity work in Icon.

*Some* mission data is in the game clients.  Some isn't.  Reverse engineers would have to either recreate it, or somehow find it elsewhere.

And some game behavior existed only in the game code really.  For example, critter AI existed as profile files, but those profile files ultimately tapped code that implemented those behaviors which would obviously have to be programmed.

Quote
I want to know though.   Does AEON have a private server?  If so, how did it manage it?  And how long did it take?  I didn't think it was as popular a game as Coh?
I dunno, I have no experience on Aion private servers (I know they exist).  I can speculate, but its probably best I don't.

Azrael

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2014, 11:59:58 PM »
Arcana,

'Mega' Thanks again for such an authoritative reply.  (You clearly seem to be on the 'inside' track.  It's great for the Coh/Titan community to have you around here.)  But the information you're providing here is GOLD. 

Why?  I've been through the 'mega' Icon thread and very little of this kind of information is on the titan boards.  Unless I missed it.  I further suggest that Codewarrior and your authoritative posts could be 'pinned' at the head of the Icon threads so people can understand what Icon IS and what it isn't and understand the nature of the relationship of the client vs server Coh and derive enough hints from such info to read between the lines and glean a bit of 'hope' for any potential reverse engineering project.  Enough to hang around and pop in from time to time.

Again you've provided 'concrete' examples of how the game client vs server worked.  This is helpful to other posters who may not understand the situation, who are maybe 'well wishers' for any such reverse engineering project or simply want to enjoy the Titan Coh refugee community and the great 'Icon' keep sake which reminds us...that Coh isn't dead.  "Not.  Yet."

That aside...

So, what you're indicating.  There's enough data in the Coh client 'body' to indicate to clever programmers how the 'brain' should work (i.e server) and what 'calls' to the game client it should(!) make.  i.e. 2 you can almost 'work backwards' to create a mini program that would activate each thread/puppet wire aspect of client api as a server api.

If I'm reading you right, it's not always cut and dried which data IS and ISN'T in the game client.  i.e. 'some' mission data IS in the game client.  Some isn't.  So all isn't lost.  But if enough is in there it could be helpful to programmers to figure out/extrapolate the 'missing' mission data from other sources.  So not ALL the missions are 'lost.'  They may just require 'server' calls to active them with the proviso that all other server functionality is around as well!  Ok.  That sounds intriguing.

Also captivating is the idea that critter A.I existed as 'profile' files.  Hmm.  *thinks.  But again, they ultimately 'tapped' into server 'brain' code.  But the good news here is that the A.I for trolls, council, tsoo etc is in the client?  That's surely great news?  So the 'character' of mobs (and therefore, COH!) is intact and doesn't have to be written from scratch.  But they still need to tap into server side 'brain code' for combat instruction.  eg.  I'm a troll but I'm still waiting for the server to tell me what's going on.  eg2.  Player has pressed button for power...display power....animate power...hit critter...critter A.I has a personality but is told WHAT to do by server?  (I think I'm getting the hang of this now...)

Furthermore, combat numbers were quite prevalent in Coh forum builds.  So the 'maths' of the combat system is basically understood.  It just (I know there's no 'just' about it...) needs a server program to subtract the damage from the e.g. resistance numbers off a tank or critter if it gets hit by e.g. a critter or a blaster respectively and tell the game client what damage numbers/health/stamina to display.  This is surely just RPG combat dice role program at its heart with a data base/log table of values for critters and player (archetypes)?  Not simple in a morg context but nothing other private servers haven't surpassed in terms of obstacles to bringing alive combat in old games?  Like you say.  You can 'see' how the energy blast works in the client.  So a programmer would be able to recreate some approximate server program to get it to 'wake' up in the game client and co-ordinate it's use?

So basically, the game client is most like a train station full of trains.  But it needs the train master/timetable (Server) to tell the trains what trains are going, when and where to go..and all the interactions to and from said station or from station to station.

Sorry if this sounds nuts and bolts ish.  But it's helpful in that Mega Icon thread has had 55000 views.  Clearly there's demand to bring this game 'phoenix' like from the ashes back to the community.  Having somebody from the 'inside track' explain in practical examples of what the game/server client functionality is and what it can and can't do is helpful for 'well wishers' (who may sigh sadly, wishing for more from Icon...) understand and know the 'S.C.O.R.E.' ;)

Top reply.  Many thanks again, Arcana.  :)

Azrael.

PS.  I hope I don't sound too enthusiastic.  But I'm simply curious 'how it works.'  ...and the nature of what is and isn't required to see it live once more.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 12:20:29 AM by Azrael »

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2014, 12:52:27 AM »
First a disclaimer: I'm not personally involved in any project to recreate game servers.  I'm not an "insider" in that sense.  I'm just extremely familiar with how the game worked given all of the work I did when the game was still around both working with the devs, and on my own, to figure out how the game worked.  In the process, I have accumulated thousands of bits of information from the devs and from my own poking around.

I'm probably the ultimate player-insider that wasn't actually an employee at shutdown.  But I am neither an official or unofficial spokesperson for anyone that might be doing anything having anything to do with bringing the game back.  I am a well-informed color commentator.

Having said that, without getting into addressing thousands of little details, *some* of the data of the game is in the game client.  Virtually everything having to do with how to display things, animate things, create and destroy things, is in there in an essentially useable state (i.e. Icon). 

Virtually everything having to do with how combat works is either in there, or things players know (I could probably still theoretically write down every aspect of combat and power mechanics), but not in a directly usable state.  You could use it as documentation to rebuild those parts of the game, and to a certain extent you could use it in a hypothetical game engine someone were to build, but the data is inert until someone makes an engine to make it go vroom vroom.

Virtually everything having to do with game *behaviors* of a higher level than "wave hand" such as the patrol routes that enemy patrols walked in missions, to spawn points in maps, to the missions each contact handed out specifically, existed solely on the game servers and cannot be directly reconstructed from the game clients.  I wish I could say that data still exists somewhere, but unfortunately I cannot say that.  Take that for what it is worth.

What it would take to make the game run again in its shutdown I24 form is time, determination, and better code-slinging skills than I'm likely to acquire any time soon.  Beyond that, all I can say is nothing's impossible.

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2014, 02:35:54 AM »
Also captivating is the idea that critter A.I existed as 'profile' files.  Hmm.  *thinks.  But again, they ultimately 'tapped' into server 'brain' code.  But the good news here is that the A.I for trolls, council, tsoo etc is in the client?  That's surely great news?

No, the client doesn't have any of the AI. It doesn't even have the full profiles, just the behavior alias list, which has a few mappings that were used for convenience but not the full thing. Here's a couple examples:

Name = DefaultCritter
Behavior = Combat
FileName = AISCRIPT/BEHAVIORALIASES.BAL

Name = FleeToNearestDoor
Behavior = RunIntoDoor
FileName = AISCRIPT/BEHAVIORALIASES.BAL

Name = GoodAndFrozenInPlace
Behavior = Team(Hero),DoNothing(DoNotFaceTarget)
FileName = AISCRIPT/BEHAVIORALIASES.BAL

There's a number of those, but they only cover a small subset of possible AI behaviors. Even if someone somehow had the profiles (which only existed server side), those just have preference values. The AI brain code on the server is what makes it all work and what has to be recreated in a way that's similar enough to the original to be convincingly COH.

Virtually everything having to do with game *behaviors* of a higher level than "wave hand" such as the patrol routes that enemy patrols walked in missions, to spawn points in maps, to the missions each contact handed out specifically, existed solely on the game servers and cannot be directly reconstructed from the game clients.

That's actually a bad example, since spawn points and patrol routes are in the map files on the client. Likely it would have been too much work to strip them out and maintain two separate copies of every map.

What's missing are the "spawndef" files that the maps reference that tell the game what to spawn there, what scripts to run on them, etc. Some of them can be somewhat guessed from the name, others are a mystery as to what their contents would be.

Those are what is visible see-everything mode in Icon, since they have actual geometry associated with them that is normally invisible except when map editing. The models for many of the little markers are in EncounterSpawns.geo under object_library/Omni:


Ohioknight

  • Celebrating Columbus Day
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • 65 years old
Re: Icon question!
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2014, 03:25:01 AM »
If I'm reading you right, it's not always cut and dried which data IS and ISN'T in the game client.  i.e. 'some' mission data IS in the game client.  Some isn't.  So all isn't lost.  But if enough is in there it could be helpful to programmers to figure out/extrapolate the 'missing' mission data from other sources.  So not ALL the missions are 'lost.'  They may just require 'server' calls to active them with the proviso that all other server functionality is around as well! 

Azrael,

I would point out that the COH recovery effort doesn't really NEED the mission information -- and in some ways would be better without it. 

If a reverse-engineered game had the powers and character AI management... Then imagine what could be done with a tool that let you CHOOSE what gang to spawn on each spawn site.  Imagine a tool that could let you build missions with AE and then attach those missions to mission entry points and contacts -- where you create everything from the contact script down to the mission completion result.  Imagine you can save all that creation into a file you could post online and share with others in the community.

"A lot of work to recreate the game that way" you say?  Yes.  But THE COMMUNITY could rebuild the game -- all the technical work would be done.  Further the community could create THOUSANDS OF VERSIONS of the game -- each playable offline or on private servers.
"Wow, a fat, sarcastic, Star Trek fan, you must be a devil with the ladies"