New efforts!

[adarict]

My favorite character I ever made, was my Emp/Elec defender.  I started out right before I3 was released.  For at least the next 4 issues, my Emp was my only character that was FREQUENTLY kicked from teams specifically for blasting.  There were a LOT of groups that assumed if you were blasting, you weren't doing your job.  It really was annoying.  What confused me, but drove home the idea that the forum population did not represent the majority of players, was the fact that even during that time, the forums were full of people decrying the pigeonholing of Empathy as a "healbot".  I spent a lot of time on the forums, and got the feeling that it was common knowledge that an Empathy defender could do much more than just heal.  Then I would go back to the game, and be constantly berated for using anything other than my heals. 

Honestly, the first time it happened, I was kind of concerned.  CoH was my first MMO, and I knew that I was not fully aware of "proper" conventions of team play.  I really thought  that I must have done something wrong.  I learned pretty quickly to just ignore it.  They usually saw the benefits if they gave it a chance, and if not, well I didn't need to play with those kind of people anyway.  The reason I played the game, was to enjoy myself.  Combining my heals, buffs, and blasting was how I enjoyed playing.  If they didn't like it, I wasn't a good match for their team.  Still kind of stung to get kicked so often.    I'm not saying I was one of the best Emp/Elec defenders out there, but I was competent and understood how my powers worked in conjunction with each other, as well as others on the team.

[pinballdave]

My bias against heals was that certain players considered empaths the REAL healers and the other defender primaries (controller and corruptor secondaries) as other healers aka healer wannabes.

What I looked for in an empath on our team was not if heal other was delivered the moment a health bar twitched, but how many fortitude icons they had showing at a point in time. Most empaths rocked the aura.

[Auroxis]

What I looked for in an empath on our team was not if heal other was delivered the moment a health bar twitched, but how many fortitude icons they had showing at a point in time. Most empaths rocked the aura.

One of my favorite activities was going into the Sewers in Atlas Park with my Empath after hearing a sewers team forming. Then I proceeded to Fortitude 7 of them, AB their DPS turn by turn and RA all of them while following and rarely touching the heal button. It gave me buff practice and a false sense of superiority, while giving them an easy few levels as well as some education about Empathy's power beyond heals.

[Vee]

My bias was from the 'thanks for heals' on teams where other support kept the hp bars from even moving, and really it wasn't til i made some alts on the larger servers that I got any of that or the 'need a healer' nonsense. We had a bunch of people with emp mains on Triumph but they knew how to be more than healbots so none of the annoying stuff came up.

[Azrael]

I also think though that CoH had an issue with giving people the sense of being more powerful with the buffs early on.  Specifically force fields were very discrete, but we all know just how subtle sonic buffs were and how so many people didn't even know they were being buffed.  Or even saw the difference in some cases(controllers/corruptors had this pretty bad in the early levels with sonic resonance).

Agree with this.  Both in communicating their effects and in their potency.  I'd argue they took a while to get going and that compounded my frustration at them also, in FF's case..., to self buff.  Well, there WAS force bubble and disperstion bubble.  (Didn't the latter get nixed for being too powerful in the early days.. ? )

I was for making far more powerful enablers. 

In the F.F def case?  Self buff with def and ins bubbles.  . Added to dispersion would have made a far more interesting and potent defender...along with the solo dam buff.

Azrael.

[Arcana]

My bias against heals was that certain players considered empaths the REAL healers and the other defender primaries (controller and corruptor secondaries) as other healers aka healer wannabes.

My bias was from the 'thanks for heals' on teams where other support kept the hp bars from even moving, and really it wasn't til i made some alts on the larger servers that I got any of that or the 'need a healer' nonsense.

Well, my bias was against stupid people, which covered both these bases.

[Vee]

F.F. needed some help, even if it was just some defense debuff resistance in dispersion bubble.

[Azrael]

Aye.  I felt Dispersion was underpowered.  One meZ attack and you were down.  Felt its base should be higher.

That's part of why I felt the resistances of the ins and def shields should have been self buffable.

I.e. add layers of defence/resistance to a weak archetype and make them as respectably tough as a scrapper but at range.

I'd expect that from. Force field specialist.

Azrael.

Ps.  In what issue was the team bubble buff added?  It sure got boring clicking x16 times on a team of 8 for two shield buffs...

[parabola]

in many ways playing the tank well was like playing the controller with one hand tied behind my back.

I always thought there were many similarities between tanks and trollers, at least in the way I ended up playing them. I loved tanks with control options and also spent many happy hours filling the tank role on my trollers. Broadly speaking both archtypes had primaries dedicated to denying the mobs freedom of action in differing ways.

[katycat737]

I know it's largely off topic from all the combat talk...

But around this time of year, I love getting myself a cup of coffee and taking the longest wiki walks in ParagonWiki. Reading about Galaxy City (pre destruction), Outbreak/Breakout!, some of the "forgotten heroes/NPC" like Galaxy Girl, Dauntless, Kalinda, and my favorite Arbiter, Arbiter Diaz 

I picked up City of VILLAINS (yup! Not heroes) as my first MMO when it first released, and I was in total awe of the beggining of the game.
I even remember the first online player I saw! His name was Guyver or something and others started coming on... The amount of creativity these people had and they each had poured their own time creating their own little story in the description box.

It's so breathtaking, but sad at the same time. The amount of story and background in City of Heroes was amazing.

[Twisted Toon]

My bias against heals was that certain players considered empaths the REAL healers and the other defender primaries (controller and corruptor secondaries) as other healers aka healer wannabes.

I recall one time, when I was playing my Dark/Dark Defender, I was asked if I was a healer. I replied, I have a heal. they never sent me an invite to team. Which was fine by me, since I normally solo'd anyway. I was tempted, ever so briefly, to inform them that I could negate the need for healing with my debuff, but got distracted soloing my own missions.

Short attention span for the...

[LaughingAlex]

Most of my bias was more "thanks for heals" when it was buffs/debuffs keeping the health bars from moving myself.  Especially since I was often the person keeping them from moving.  It's why I feel healers tend to get far more credit than they deserve.  Because they really do.

[Azrael]

I recall one time, when I was playing my Dark/Dark Defender, I was asked if I was a healer. I replied, I have a heal. they never sent me an invite to team. Which was fine by me, since I normally solo'd anyway. I was tempted, ever so briefly, to inform them that I could negate the need for healing with my debuff, but got distracted soloing my own missions.

Are you a healer..?  Yes.  I remember that on my dark and my ff def.

Dark/Dark was very interesting to solo.  Unique.  A clever set.  Visually intriguing.

I remember one dark dark def saying, "You see those numbers?  That's how much you're not getting hit."  Tar pit.  Debuff toggle.  The visually striking tentacles power. )

It was hard to get your head around initially.  Like saying you could tank with  good controller.

I.e just another way to ' control' the mobs.

But yes.  Not all players were 'educated' about matters other than 'trinity.'  But in my case, that re-education came in time.  Especially when I saw how Rad Defenders could help in taking down some AVs...where 'mere' brute force couldn't.  I remember being turned down because I was a 'bubbler' and not a 'healer' defender for teams and the wasted explanations in the tell chat.  Yeesh.  I do remember seeing excellent Dark/Dark Defenders toasting later level maps.  Very potent in helping a team perform to their best.  A rad, sonic or Dark def' could really help turn a team from pug randomness to 'this is how we roll.'

Azrael.

[MM3squints]

I always thought there were many similarities between tanks and trollers, at least in the way I ended up playing them. I loved tanks with control options and also spent many happy hours filling the tank role on my trollers. Broadly speaking both archtypes had primaries dedicated to denying the mobs freedom of action in differing ways.

I built my main like a tank. Tanks hold agro. Trollers just hold everything.

[scope.creep]

Way back at issue 0, some friends and I decided to play a theme group--black suits & ties and assault rifles. They went with blasters (devices, natch), but I was concerned about survival. I decided to go with an Emp/AR defender. Do not want. In fact, I never played an Emp again. I remember joining a TF with a FF defender and being bored out of my mind.

If I had it to do again, I'd go with FF. Well actually, I'd make a blaster also, because blasters (and later dominators) were my favoritest ATs ever, but assuming that I went 'fender, it would be FF.

Come to think of it, we'd have been better off if I HAD gone AR/Dev, because issue 0 smoke grenade was boss. Broken, yes, but awesome, especially stacked.

Edit: Actually, it was most likely just a team running mission story arcs. I never got that character high enough for the interesting empathy powers, and I think that not even a FF defender could keep up with the damage in the original Posi TF. Whatever. Point is that I never liked playing empaths.

[Azrael]

Way back at issue 0, some friends and I decided to play a theme group--black suits & ties and assault rifles. They went with blasters (devices, natch), but I was concerned about survival. I decided to go with an Emp/AR defender. Do not want. In fact, I never played an Emp again. I remember joining a TF with a FF defender and being bored out of my mind.

If I had it to do again, I'd go with FF. Well actually, I'd make a blaster also, because blasters (and later dominators) were my favoritest ATs ever, but assuming that I went 'fender, it would be FF.

Come to think of it, we'd have been better off if I HAD gone AR/Dev, because issue 0 smoke grenade was boss. Broken, yes, but awesome, especially stacked.

Edit: Actually, it was most likely just a team running mission story arcs. I never got that character high enough for the interesting empathy powers, and I think that not even a FF defender could keep up with the damage in the original Posi TF. Whatever. Point is that I never liked playing empaths.

I think there was a lot of 'elastic' in using a 'force multiplier.'  Defenders were good at this.  With two FF/Energy Defenders you could 'walk' the game right up to L50.  Nemesis snipers included.  AR/Devices.  A team of those would be interesting.  I never got past L8 with mine...but my duo partner got his to L50 and he constantly complained about not having build up despite have a rinse repeat 'nova' and several high damage dealing powers.  And all that stealth.  And the targeting drone.  And the smoke grenade...  And the bombs.  And web grenade...  Maybe he should have rolled an IO build.  I saw Assault/Dev blaster devour L50 Council maps.  (you know the one, THE 'don't touch the glowie' Council power leveller map...   And he was hardly touched with aggro'.  Flame thrower...those mobs with caltrops..?

Yeesh.  For the alts I think I did roll...I have a disproportionate amount of ones I'm now curious about.  Eg.  Force/Gravity Controller, Ice/Ice tank, Ice/Fire tank, Ice/DM tank, Plant Dominator(!), Assault/Dev blaster, an IO'd turbo Hasten En/EN blaster build...all the auto snipe and self buff blaster builds...IO'ing my Ice/Ice/Ice Blaster...Incarnating my En/Invul tank...

I have so many questions?

What Incarnate should I have picked for my L50 Invul/En tanker?
What Incarnate would I have picked for my L50 En/En Blaster?  How much would it have costed to create Arcana's En/En turbo build?   (The most I ever spent was 4.5 billion on my Elec/Elec/Elec Domi...perma Domi and Hasten but I only got about 2/3rds of the way on the Defence Cap...)
What would my Dark/Dark defender have 'looked' like if I'd got him to L50?  Would I have gone for Dark epics?  Could I have solved the huge end problem and got some 'meZ' protection?  What incarnate would I have chosen?
What I have ever got a Rad/Rad Defender above L10?
I rolled an Illusion/Emp Controller x3 times.  Would I ever have got one past L8 and onto L18 to get Phantom Army.  Did I miss out?
Could I have made my elegant Ice/Ice/Ice blaster even more deadly by IO'ing it? Could I have improved the defensive aspect of the epics by tricking out the IO build?  What Incarnate would I have picked?
What about my L41 Warshade?  Could I have got it to L50 and creating an AOE killing machine?  Would I have had enough slots for my Tri-form build?
What about my L44 Peacebringer?  Could I have got perms-unstoppable on it and finally slotted a knock back protection IO in it?
Did I miss out on my Gravity/Energy Dominator by not getting to L32 and getting 'Xen' the gravity pet.  That may have helped.  It was slow going on the way up to those late 20s.  I just missed out on having the time to 'take it to the next level.'
Could I have got my L41 Elec/Elec stalker and part time Palpatine...to L50 and become even more deadly and insidious?
What about my Katana/Willpower scrapper?  L38.  Would it have been a salami slicer at L50?
Or my Dual Blades/Willpower scrapper?  L38.  Could it have been an arachnos slayer at L50?
...and my only Mastermind.  Beastmaster/I can't remember the name of the 2ndary.  L38.  Direwolf.  IO'd out.  Could it have been anymore awesome?  What Incarnate for that?  Could I have made Bees perma sting?   Or my pets more robust?
Could I have tested the much lauded Willpower 'tank' all the way up to L50 with Stone Melee as my guide?  I'd heard it was 'thee' tanker primary to have.  ie.  Willpower.
Could I have created a chain saw build of my Dark Melee/Energy brute?

Would I have had the time to test all of the above?

I guess I got into IOs late in the game.  But I tried them with excellent builds for a tank (though I didn't get perma Dull Pain on that... :/) , brute (all capped out on all damage at range, melee and AoE!) and dominator (didn't reach the soft cap...).

Bah.  See?

All those years of playing.  And only 'in the end' did I see the depth of the buffs.  The combinations.  The untold builds.  The untold combinations.  ...and a frustrating amount of questions left 'unanswered' for my many alts who looked sadly on as the game closed.

Azrael. :/

If I had it to do again, I'd go with FF. Well actually, I'd make a blaster also, because blasters (and later dominators) were my favoritest ATs ever, but assuming that I went 'fender, it would be FF.

Dominators.  *lust.  Once I discovered Dominators (in Going Rogue...) they became my favourite types succeeding blasters (though I still had a soft spot for En/En blastblapper and my Ice/Ice blastoller...)  Domination button.  Mez protection and end bar fills up.  'It's going down!'  Great feeling of the 'come back kid' after soaking up the rope-a-dope.   My duo-partner (yes, him again...) tried an elec controller and didn't like the 'race car' sounds and thought damage was feeble.  I tried to get him to roll an Elec Dominator.  Control.  Scrap.  Blap.  Blast.   What's not to like?!  I rolled Stone/Stone and Elec/Elec.  They were a masterpiece of strategy...and what was cool about them was mastering when to 'stay long' to establish mob control and when to close to melee for the 'take out' punch.  Stone had awesome control and brilliant 'take out' melee.  Typified Dominators at their best for me.  And the electric was elegant compared to Stone's brute force.  How many ways to pull the legs off spiders?   Confuse.  Sleep.  Drain.  DoT from Chain Fences.  Knockdown.  Thunderstrike.  Havoc Punch.  Static Charge AOE .  Electric Ball AOE.  Imps.  Mu.  Mitigation?  Too tired or too asleep or end drained mobs to fight back.  So many pets to fight for me.  Complete chess board battle field for the dominator to mastermind the fight.  Who's the daddy, right? 

[Joshex]

Actually, there were always debates about just how aggro worked until Castle looked it up.  It turns out that you can't "yank" aggro from a tank in the manner most people described as actually witnessing.  Basically, if the target has a taunt effect on it from the tank, as long as the tank hits it with anything the tank is going to own that target.  If the target does not have a taunt effect on it from the tank, the tank is unlikely to even acquire aggro if anything else is attacking it also.  Basically, taunt applies a 1000x multiplier on aggro *times* the taunt duration.  That means there's virtually no damage or debuff in the world that can take aggro from a tank if the tank has a taunt effect on it.

The real problem is that no matter how much a player might think they have all the targets consistently covered, its hard to actually maintain that in actual play across a lot of targets.  When a tank lost aggro to a blaster, it was always due to the blaster hitting a target that the tank no longer had taunted in some fashion, or that the tanker had taunted but otherwise didn't hit with any attacks.  The only things that can steal aggro from a tanker that is actively trying to hold aggro is something else with an even stronger (longer) taunt**.  Invuln scrapper can steal aggro from Willpower tanker, for example.

The blasters most likely to steal aggro from tankers were not the ones with the most damage or debuff, but the ones with the largest area of effect powers with the largest target caps.  They were most likely to catch a target that otherwise escaped the tanker's taunt effects or damage effects.  You needed both to maintain aggro.


** Mathematically, there were corner cases.  Say, a tanker taunting a target from extreme range and hitting with tiny dot attacks could hypothetically be overridden by a blaster standing in melee range landing thousands of points of damage.  But anything short of an AV would likely be dead before that happened.

I'm gonna have to start setting up a bookmark system for posts like these.

[pinballdave]

Aye.  I felt Dispersion was underpowered.  One meZ attack and you were down.  Felt its base should be higher.

That's part of why I felt the resistances of the ins and def shields should have been self buffable.

I.e. add layers of defence/resistance to a weak archetype and make them as respectably tough as a scrapper but at range.

I'd expect that from. Force field specialist.

Azrael.

Ps.  In what issue was the team bubble buff added?  It sure got boring clicking x16 times on a team of 8 for two shield buffs...

If it were just 14 clicks for the teammates. My bubble mastermind has six pets.

[Minotaur]

Funnily enough, I'm finding that in some circumstances in NW you can break the holy trinity in ways akin to CoH.

I play a "healer", but I don't heal much. What I do is closer to a CoH kin. NW uses the 4ED&D system of at will/encounter/daily powers. I basically cause everybody's dailies to recharge much faster. This means that a paladin tank can keep a power permanent that means he absorbs all damage from the rest of the party. If he's "slotted for recharge" he can also recharge a power that gives him a bucketload of temp hits fast enough to survive this.

Also finding that quite a lot of instanced content doesn't need a tank or healer and is faster with 5 DPS.

[worldweary]

I know many people overlooked it but Sonic Resonance is definitely going to be one of my earliest characters.
Sonic and Thermal both could make a huge difference by adding Resistance to people who only built for Defense.Sonic could add 35% Resistance without slotting(I think).I never built for the Incarnate softcap so every buff from every teammate meant I could take powers on tight builds I would never have been able to before.