Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7286263 times)

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26060 on: October 25, 2016, 01:22:36 AM »
I wouldn't call the streak breaker a cheat due to it being used also for misses.

Also? I thought that was all it did.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26061 on: October 25, 2016, 03:03:48 AM »
I wouldn't call the streak breaker a cheat due to it being used also for misses.

Besides, the game didn't allow streaking.  You could make something skin-tight, but the skin-tone and costume colors would be off.  Even so, antomical details were concealed.  So no streaking, it's cheasting.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26062 on: October 25, 2016, 03:33:20 AM »
I wouldn't call the streak breaker a cheat due to it being used also for misses. I remember that I had a miss streak of 9 times in a row, on a yellow -con lt, then I was able to hit once, then back to missing. However, later in levels such as l35 and above I never noticed when I missed or if I ever did.
However, I wouldn't call it a cheat for the player. More like trying to keep combat normalized.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normalized" but the streakbreaker was put in there explicitly because of complaints that players had that they did not like missing many times in a row, even if that behavior was entirely correct for the random chance to hit.  People tend to think that if there's a 10% chance of hitting, they will hit exactly or very nearly one time in ten.  But that's not the case.  Random chance says that sometimes you'll hit three out of five and sometimes you'll miss fifty times in a row.  Both of those have somewhat similar chances of happening: about one in 176 to hit three out of five, about one in 194 to miss fifty times in a row.  Given how many times a player attacks in an hour, in a day, in a year, the odds of this happening are actually very high, but people notice and remember the long string of misses more - and estimate the odds against it happening extremely poorly.  In fact, given the number of players and the total amount of combat that occurred in the history of the game, I'm positive there was some unlucky player that managed to miss one hundred times in a row.

The devs decided to implement the streakbreaker to reduce the maximum possible miss streak any player could experience given a particular tohit chance to something they felt intuitively seemed reasonable.  So if your chance tohit was 90%, the streakbreaker would allow one miss, but the next swing would automatically hit because it would not allow two misses in a row.  Different tohit allowed different maximum miss streaks.

This has nothing to do with "normalizing" combat.  That implies that missing many times in a row is not normal or statistically proper.  The streakbreaker de-normalized combat by increasing the number of hits and reducing the maximum possible miss streak.  Interestingly, because it affected all attackers including NPCs, it also had the net effect of making defense - for players and NPCs alike - slightly weaker than expected, particularly for intermediate values of defense.  If you had strong defense and could bring net overall tohit below 20%, then the streakbreaker was for all practical purposes non-existent - it would tolerate miss streaks of up to 100 misses.  But at, say, 30% to 40% it would only allow 6 miss streaks.  The odds of missing seven times in a row against something with net 30% tohit is about one in 12.  That means the streakbreaker could be adding hits on a scale of as often as one out of every seventy swings or so - about 1.4% of the time.  So if you had 20% defense, the streakbreaker could be having the net effect of reducing that defensive mitigation by 1.4 out of 20 or about 7 percent of the total strength of the defense (its more complicated than that, but you get the idea).

Not the kind of thing players would notice overall, but the effect was there, and measurable if you knew how to look.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26063 on: October 25, 2016, 03:34:15 AM »
Also? I thought that was all it did.

The streakbreaker only counted (and broke) streaks of misses.  The streakbreaker never turned a hit into a miss.  It only turned misses into hits.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26064 on: October 25, 2016, 07:41:14 AM »
There were days when the streak-breaker was the only thing that kept me from rage-quitting.
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rookery.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26065 on: October 25, 2016, 11:28:43 AM »
Besides, the game didn't allow streaking.  You could make something skin-tight, but the skin-tone and costume colors would be off.  Even so, antomical details were concealed.  So no streaking, it's cheasting.

>.>

You could if you gave yourself black skin and black costume. Tseru ran around in nothing but thigh boots and bat wings.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26066 on: October 25, 2016, 12:09:43 PM »
I'd say streakbreaker was and was not cheating. It was in the sense that it deformed the results of random events but it wasn't because humans don't like or understand random well. The concept that you can miss twenty times in a row makes lots of folks think the game is broken and in a certain sense it is. Missing twenty times in a row is 'Not fun' and if the purpose of the game is to entertain then it is failing by allowing true randomness to affect the 'fun' of play.

CrimsonCapacitor

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26067 on: October 25, 2016, 03:30:07 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "normalized"...

<SNIP>


I'm going with Normal = Perpendicular.

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Pengy

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26068 on: October 25, 2016, 08:08:43 PM »
I'm going with Normal = Perpendicular.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26069 on: October 25, 2016, 08:12:01 PM »


Both of em actually.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26070 on: October 26, 2016, 03:48:06 AM »
I'd say streakbreaker was and was not cheating. It was in the sense that it deformed the results of random events but it wasn't because humans don't like or understand random well. The concept that you can miss twenty times in a row makes lots of folks think the game is broken and in a certain sense it is. Missing twenty times in a row is 'Not fun' and if the purpose of the game is to entertain then it is failing by allowing true randomness to affect the 'fun' of play.

I appreciated the streakbreaker myself because I often, very frequently suffered from "@#$@ing random number god!" crap myself, and still suffer from it in games with random systems.  The streak breaker helped assure me that the game was fair with the random generator in that if I had an 85% chance to hit with my attacks, 85% of them would hit, not only 40, or 50, and that heavier high-endurance-high-damage attack was not going to miss every single time in an attack chain during a fight(which happened, a, LOT pre-streakbreaker).

The streakbreaker was one of a few steps CoH took towards the "Challenging not punishing" design it ended up with over the time I was playing it.  Losing to pure randomness leaves players feeling the game takes no skill, because in a way it doesn't when everything is to random.  It's called a "Luck based mission", and some players I recall did hate playing CoH over the RNG hit roles.  They felt it took zero skill, even though there were dozens of ways to circumvent the RNG to ensure reliable hits constantly, especially since sadly those means to circumvent the RNG came later in the game, rather than earlier, so they'd never see them in action.

Not to mention the infamous positron TF before it was changed and the mass of -tohit and +defense that the circle of thorns spammed beyond belief making themselves near indestructable against teams without lots of -defense debuffs.  It was the definition of "Punishing" gameplay; yes it was very hard, but very unfun at the same time.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26071 on: October 26, 2016, 06:24:01 AM »
The streakbreaker was one of a few steps CoH took towards the "Challenging not punishing" design it ended up with over the time I was playing it.  Losing to pure randomness leaves players feeling the game takes no skill, because in a way it doesn't when everything is to random.  It's called a "Luck based mission", and some players I recall did hate playing CoH over the RNG hit roles.  They felt it took zero skill, even though there were dozens of ways to circumvent the RNG to ensure reliable hits constantly, especially since sadly those means to circumvent the RNG came later in the game, rather than earlier, so they'd never see them in action.

1.  I'm not sure what you mean by "circumvent" the RNG.  There's no way to literally do that.

2.  While I am aware of the fact that some people had this attitude, that if they lost a fight due to a swing being a miss instead of a hit or vice versa that meant the fault was entirely the RNG, it is in my opinion an entirely irrational attitude to have.  You could just as easily say that with no randomness in the game all combat would be predetermined - because it would be deterministically calculable, and thus required no skill.  Which is to say, both statements express an extreme perspective that lacks the nuance the actual game contains.

It is interesting to note that there is no streakbreaker in a lot of other contexts with identical randomness.  There is no streakbreaker mechanism in most PnP games.  There's no streakbreaker in any arcade-style game I've heard of: draw bad sequences in those games and that's just luck of the draw.  And no one demands changes to the rules of the sport when a basketball that "should" go through the basket gets ejected by the rim due to a rare unusual bounce.

3.  The great irony about the RNG is that it is, in fact, intended to reduce the threshold of skill required to play the game.  The alternative isn't to make everything always hit, it is to actually *require* skill, real skill, to generate hits**.  The flattening of the skill curve that the RNG allows makes the game more casual friendly.  The ironic element is that it is casual players that are far more likely to complain about the RNG.

For me personally, the RNG was never the cause of a bad outcome.  The RNG can cause me to miss.  It cannot force me to engage in a fight that I actually need random luck to win in the first place.  It cannot take away tactical options that are available when the RNG is unfavorable, or prevent me from preparing such tactical options and holding them in reserve.  The only time the RNG held my fate is when I handed the RNG my fate voluntarily, and let the RNG decide.


** Technically, there's another game design alternative: make everything cost a deterministic amount of a finite resource, rather than require players to navigate a random player-space.  The F2P mobile gaming industry figured that out a while ago, to the detriment of the entire population of the Earth.

rookery.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26072 on: October 26, 2016, 11:19:32 AM »
The streakbreaker mechanism in PnP games is the GM. Unless you play a game where all the rolls are in the open, behind the screen rolling means the GM can 'fudge' dice rolls either to spare a characters life or to let the bad guy hold on one more round.

In general it is done to enhance the 'fun' of the session cause no one likes losing a fight over one dice roll, nor do they want a big bad evil guy who goes down in one round.


Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26073 on: October 26, 2016, 03:57:12 PM »
The streakbreaker mechanism in PnP games is the GM. Unless you play a game where all the rolls are in the open, behind the screen rolling means the GM can 'fudge' dice rolls either to spare a characters life or to let the bad guy hold on one more round.

In general it is done to enhance the 'fun' of the session cause no one likes losing a fight over one dice roll, nor do they want a big bad evil guy who goes down in one round.

In the PnP games that I play, the GM has decided to make the "End Boss" fight a room full of minions and all the canon fodder before that the "Boss". We seem to have a horribl time taking down canon fodder, but yhe big bad boss guy goes down in one shot. Oh look, the evil overlord of mightyness. *arrow to the eye socket* Oh no, his minions! Run away! run awaayy!
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LateNights

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26074 on: October 26, 2016, 06:35:01 PM »
Just so i know - did anyone not read (& learn) from Arcanas posts while CoH was active?

Also, i miss you all more than you know - when im drunk (bad back)...

But only if you like hardcore - "something"

Like normal people...

Du Hast.

CrimsonCapacitor

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26075 on: October 26, 2016, 06:52:48 PM »
The streakbreaker mechanism in PnP games is the GM. Unless you play a game where all the rolls are in the open, behind the screen rolling means the GM can 'fudge' dice rolls either to spare a characters life or to let the bad guy hold on one more round.

In general it is done to enhance the 'fun' of the session cause no one likes losing a fight over one dice roll, nor do they want a big bad evil guy who goes down in one round.

Ah, the old PnP games... Player Nersus Player.  I like the PnE ones better to learn how to play the game. 
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Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26076 on: October 26, 2016, 08:14:56 PM »
Just so i know - did anyone not read (& learn) from Arcanas posts while CoH was active?

Also, i miss you all more than you know - when im drunk (bad back)...

But only if you like hardcore - "something"

Like normal people...

Du Hast.
Kommt heraus!
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26077 on: October 26, 2016, 08:17:23 PM »
Ah, the old PnP games... Player Nersus Player.  I like the PnE ones better to learn how to play the game.
PnE... Pencil 'n Eggplant. Always found those the hardest character sheets to work with.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Codewalker

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26078 on: October 26, 2016, 08:18:05 PM »
Ah, the old PnP games... Player Nersus Player.  I like the PnE ones better to learn how to play the game. 

Player Nurses Player?

I think you can get that in such classics as E.R. Online, House: The Card Game, and General Hospital Tabletop.

CrimsonCapacitor

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26079 on: October 26, 2016, 08:23:50 PM »
Player Nurses Player?

I think you can get that in such classics as E.R. Online, House: The Card Game, and General Hospital Tabletop.

There was a "Virtual Surgeon" game waaay back in the day.

And you're forgetting "Chicago Hope & Souls," but that had all the "Sexy Nurses" and the combat in it wasn't great.
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