Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7212258 times)

Ninten19

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27340 on: April 15, 2017, 01:12:19 AM »
If the game Lore must be revised to totally replace Statesman, Reichsman and Tyrant that is fine with me. Just get the game back online! :)

Adjust the Lore so that the defeat of Darin Wade caused a paradigm shift in reality that erased Statesman, Reichman and Tyrant.  COH history gets a revision that sets Positron up as the main hero of Earth, and Antimatter becomes the ruler of Praetoria, and we make a new version of Positron to be the new Reichsman.

Then one day when the licensing is all approved, someone punches the walls of reality, causing a reversion/rebirth that restores Statesman and the rest. ;)

It's not just that. Any mention of any character, team, specific plot McGuffin, living, dead, ANYTHING from City of Heroes as it was, is vey not good, from a legal standpoint. Even naming a random quest-giver NPC from COH, in any kind of successor game, other than for the sake of parody or homage, would be seen as very legally suspicious.

It's why most of these successor projects that COH fans are making, are using 100% new characters and teams, to avoid getting in trouble since actual money's being invested with these Kickstarters.

ScottyB

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27341 on: April 15, 2017, 02:22:30 AM »
I think the conversation spun off from a hypothetical response to "Now that NCSoft is using Statesman in MXM they won't sell the CoH IP" which was "Well what if we get them to sell everything BUT Statesman and then remove all mentions of Statesman?"

To which the original reply several pages back had the best answer: either try to get a license instead of trying to outright buy it, or try to buy it in exchange for money + license for NCSoft to continue to use Statesman/CoH in MXM.

I almost wonder if the best thing at this point would be to try to pitch a new game (and not necessarily an MMO) based on CoH lore, and try to use that to justify also running a legacy server as a marketing bit, like "also check out the thing that started it all X years ago".

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27342 on: April 15, 2017, 03:09:19 AM »
I think that he would be, more likely, shopping at Git-n-Go rather than 7-eleven in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It seems to be a regional thing. Git-n-Go in Tulsa, 7-eleven in Oklahoma City...for the most part.

Either way I feel for the other people who have to use the bathroom in that IP submarine.

Surelle

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27343 on: April 15, 2017, 04:06:33 AM »
I think the conversation spun off from a hypothetical response to "Now that NCSoft is using Statesman in MXM they won't sell the CoH IP" which was "Well what if we get them to sell everything BUT Statesman and then remove all mentions of Statesman?"

To which the original reply several pages back had the best answer: either try to get a license instead of trying to outright buy it, or try to buy it in exchange for money + license for NCSoft to continue to use Statesman/CoH in MXM.

I almost wonder if the best thing at this point would be to try to pitch a new game (and not necessarily an MMO) based on CoH lore, and try to use that to justify also running a legacy server as a marketing bit, like "also check out the thing that started it all X years ago".

The last TFHM team that Nate Downes introduced to an NCSoft contact was trying to license the IP back in 2014, and get a copy of the shutdown server image so they could run CoH in zombie "maintenance mode."  It doesn't really seem to have worked.  Instead, in 2014, NCSoft greenlighted Statesman/Tyrant's use in this incoming Master X Master MOBA, which we now know through the NCWest Brand Manager who got the approval to do it.

*sad panda face*

That would be great, if NCSoft hadn't already nixed CoH2 back when Paragon Studios was still running CoH....  Moreover, if superheroes were actually popular in Asia, we might have a better shot at another type of game featuring them, but as it stands over there they just don't "get it," unfortunately. 

ScottyB

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27344 on: April 15, 2017, 05:53:58 AM »
....  Moreover, if superheroes were actually popular in Asia, we might have a better shot at another type of game featuring them, but as it stands over there they just don't "get it," unfortunately. 
Overwatch is rather "superhero"-y, and I thought I heard it's doing well in SK. A Paragon-themed arena shooter could have a diverse set of locations. Justifying heroes and villains fighting together, they could start it off with Statesman (secretly: Tyrant) revitalizing the fight against the Battalion.

Of course, the initial MOBA explosion happened about... 5 years ago? So if NCSoft keeps up that pace, they'll release an arena shooter in 2022-ish.

As for a legacy server, maybe a case can be made that CoH could be the west's Lineage. The original Lineage is still running in SK, but wasn't profitable enough to keep running in the US (and closed the year before CoH). Even without a game we're still here. And with States/Tyrant in MXM, attention can be drawn to the money being left on the table. In fact... that has inspired me to write up a new post... Link

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27345 on: April 15, 2017, 03:32:30 PM »
I'm not sure the whole "superheroes don't do well in Asia" thing would even still be true.  The movies do very well in South Korea these days.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27346 on: April 15, 2017, 08:00:08 PM »
Moreover, if superheroes were actually popular in Asia, we might have a better shot at another type of game featuring them, but as it stands over there they just don't "get it," unfortunately.

"Superheroes" isn't really a well-defined genre in Asia, because the classic superhero concept is a mostly Western idea.  But that doesn't mean superhero movies don't do well: many actually do.  I've read articles that say that the Chinese market, for example, is currently tilted towards escapist action comedies.  And that is reflected in the superhero movies that have tended to do well over there: the Marvel ones in particular, and movies like Ant-Man in very particular.  In fact Ant-Man actually did better in China than Batman v Superman did, even though BvS made almost twice as much in the US and overall.

Even here in the US superhero properties aren't all equally successful.  Deadpool and Logan are the best performing Fox movies, while their crown jewels of X-Men and Fantastic Four are doing only so-so and oh-my-god-why respectively.  We often equate Marvel success with superhero success because Marvel is everywhere and their overall success rate is just amazing.  But Warner/DC is clearly still looking for the right path to long term success.

When it comes to games in general, I think most people don't appreciate how culturally dependent gameplay is.  The literal definition of what is fun and what is reasonable and how people want to play their games is fundamentally different in different cultures, and that's why games often don't thrive when transplanted.  Marvel Contest of Champions makes a ton of money in the US and other western markets.  The developer specifically partnered with a Chinese developer to create an entirely new version of the game both localized to the language and with different gameplay designed to appeal to the Chinese market.  And it did extremely well at launch.  Six months later, they were shutting the game down completely there.  Why?  Mostly, I think because they couldn't find the sweet spot in balancing free to play and pay to win, which is a culturally different perspective in China than in the US.  Fundamentally, I think the Korean version of City of Heroes failed for a similar reason.  What we liked about the game the Korean market probably felt was tedious, and what they needed to enjoy the game were things we would have found almost horrifying.

Thunder Glove

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27347 on: April 16, 2017, 01:32:51 AM »
That's another tragedy of the whole shutdown - the timing.  Marvel's Phase 1 had just released The Avengers, only three months before the game closed, and Marvel's been riding that wave ever since.  Now we're nine years into a superhero movie renaissance, and NCSoft lost the chance to really push CoH throughout this period.  Imagine a City of Heroes ad before every superhero movie.

Of course, they'd have to push CoH while also really really cracking down on copycat characters, even more than they were doing, but that'd be a small price to pay for getting the word out that you can play superheroes in this game.  Superheroes who really feel like superheroes.  Where you can really feel powerful, and not get overwhelmed when three guys with guns show up.  Where it's not just a reskinned fantasy game, and what your character can do is determined by their powers and enhancements, not what kind of shoes they're wearing.

There's a reason I still miss it after all these years.  And that's the reason: it's the only game I've played where the superheroes feel like superheroes.

Remaugen

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27348 on: April 16, 2017, 01:53:10 AM »
Who knew space starfish guts worked the same as human ones?

I concur, CoH will be back, probably not as we knew it, but the property won't die.
We're almost there!  ;D

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27349 on: April 16, 2017, 04:03:27 AM »
There's a reason I still miss it after all these years.  And that's the reason: it's the only game I've played where the superheroes feel like superheroes.

Apropos of nothing, I think there's a master's thesis in asking and answering the question: what did balance mean in City of Heroes?

I still think about, and evolve an answer, to that question.

Ohioknight

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27350 on: April 17, 2017, 02:18:02 AM »

  In fact Ant-Man actually did better in China than Batman v Superman did, even though BvS made almost twice as much in the US and overall.


Which could have something to do with the fact that as executed and as a story AM is roughly 8000 times better a film than BvS by absolutely objective scientific standards  :P

So if you don't have a cultural stake in BvS's characters, you might be more inclined to see the other.
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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27351 on: April 18, 2017, 12:46:53 AM »
Which could have something to do with the fact that as executed and as a story AM is roughly 8000 times better a film than BvS by absolutely objective scientific standards  :P

So if you don't have a cultural stake in BvS's characters, you might be more inclined to see the other.

Are you saying only Chinese movie goers are objective?

Azrael

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27352 on: April 18, 2017, 07:46:12 PM »
Are you saying only Chinese movie goers are objective?

Not too sure about the 'go-ers.'  But higher up the food chain..?

...as a political influence?  Objective?  Hardly.

I preferred the Ancient One as an elderly male, Tibetan monk, myself.  *remembers Ditko's run on Dr. Strange fondly.

Shame marvel studio changed Ditko's Dr. Strange Universe and changed 'him' to a non-Tibetan 'girl.'

Maybe 'marvel' didn't want to alienate an audience worth 'millions.'

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27353 on: April 18, 2017, 09:32:41 PM »
I preferred the Ancient One as an elderly male, Tibetan monk, myself.  *remembers Ditko's run on Dr. Strange fondly.

I didn't mind Tilda Swinton, and I like her as an actress, but I don't think her character contributed anything especially noteworthy that made the character change worth it.  I think it would have played better with someone like James Hong channeling Lo Pan, but playing somewhat against type.  Mordo's joke about the wifi password?  That type of running against stereotype could have been played up more, if they cast someone that invoked the stereotype in the first place.

Also, they touched upon the notion that magic is not about the physical but the mental and the spiritual; the body only helps to focus the mind, vis-a-vis the guy missing a hand that can still cast the same spells.  Having the Ancient One be someone portrayed as more physically infirmed rather than someone portrayed as still in the prime of their life like the Ancient One was would have been better, I believe, than the subplot of her using the Dark Dimension to maintain her vitality.

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27354 on: April 19, 2017, 06:55:46 AM »
I didn't mind Tilda Swinton, and I like her as an actress, but I don't think her character contributed anything especially noteworthy that made the character change worth it.  I think it would have played better with someone like James Hong channeling Lo Pan, but playing somewhat against type.  Mordo's joke about the wifi password?  That type of running against stereotype could have been played up more, if they cast someone that invoked the stereotype in the first place.

Also, they touched upon the notion that magic is not about the physical but the mental and the spiritual; the body only helps to focus the mind, vis-a-vis the guy missing a hand that can still cast the same spells.  Having the Ancient One be someone portrayed as more physically infirmed rather than someone portrayed as still in the prime of their life like the Ancient One was would have been better, I believe, than the subplot of her using the Dark Dimension to maintain her vitality.
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LateNights

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27355 on: April 19, 2017, 08:27:09 AM »
Political correctness doesn't care.

Why is it politically incorrect?

Because it wasn't true to the character, because no white woman can study in Tibet?

Did those same people complain about a black Johnny Storm - because "characterisation?"??

I doubt it...

Besides, it's not as if some Asian remake of "Lethal Weapon" or something has never replaced the characters with Asian actors.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 06:44:40 PM by LateNights »

downix

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27356 on: April 19, 2017, 05:46:44 PM »
The swap was not over "whitewashing" but over the half-billion dollars Marvel would have lost had they kept the character Tibetan. The further away from the original comic book character it was, the less of a concern over China banning its distribution became.

Power Gamer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27357 on: April 19, 2017, 06:01:25 PM »
The swap was not over "whitewashing" but over the half-billion dollars Marvel would have lost had they kept the character Tibetan. The further away from the original comic book character it was, the less of a concern over China banning its distribution became.

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LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27358 on: April 19, 2017, 07:08:37 PM »
I just had this thought, one of my fav villain groups(mostly thanks to the challenge the present) was the knives of artemis.....most of them trained in Tibet.

.....Yet "Knives of Artemis", Artemis is GREEK, european.  But because they all trained in Tibet they must all be Asians?  Just a thought that yeah, political correctness isn't always correct in that sense, I always thought 60-70% of knives of artemis were Caucasian.  But then if CoH say had a comic and they suddenly demanded all knives of artemis be asian because tibet(although I suspect a lot of those who'd demand something silly like that wouldn't have ever had even seen CoH the game before)?  But then realize they made a mistake or find the name artemis to be greek.  Or then demand all knives of artemis be greeks even though...

...then again no one ever saw the faces, only the use of weapons which were the broadsword class, or just longswords and crossbows.  They had caltrops, but none of the other weapons were exclusively asian, heck even the base sword was more greek/european make.

It just makes me wonder.

I think in the end sticking to the original format is always better when it comes to a character.  Heck, those who mistake anything for white-washing need to think if a character is originally not x or y color in the first place then perhaps they aren't actually correct.  I keep thinking most of the time if they want to make a character of x or y nationality, rather than changing an existing character just make a new one.  I also think people need to remember that just because someone is from x or y nation that doesn't necessarily mean they'd belong to the majority demographic of the region, or even that a region may not have a majority demographic of any kind.
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Taceus Jiwede

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #27359 on: April 19, 2017, 09:22:05 PM »
I just had this thought, one of my fav villain groups(mostly thanks to the challenge the present) was the knives of artemis.....most of them trained in Tibet.

.....Yet "Knives of Artemis", Artemis is GREEK, european.  But because they all trained in Tibet they must all be Asians?  Just a thought that yeah, political correctness isn't always correct in that sense, I always thought 60-70% of knives of artemis were Caucasian.  But then if CoH say had a comic and they suddenly demanded all knives of artemis be asian because tibet(although I suspect a lot of those who'd demand something silly like that wouldn't have ever had even seen CoH the game before)?  But then realize they made a mistake or find the name artemis to be greek.  Or then demand all knives of artemis be greeks even though...

...then again no one ever saw the faces, only the use of weapons which were the broadsword class, or just longswords and crossbows.  They had caltrops, but none of the other weapons were exclusively asian, heck even the base sword was more greek/european make.

It just makes me wonder.

I think in the end sticking to the original format is always better when it comes to a character.  Heck, those who mistake anything for white-washing need to think if a character is originally not x or y color in the first place then perhaps they aren't actually correct.  I keep thinking most of the time if they want to make a character of x or y nationality, rather than changing an existing character just make a new one.  I also think people need to remember that just because someone is from x or y nation that doesn't necessarily mean they'd belong to the majority demographic of the region, or even that a region may not have a majority demographic of any kind.

Honestly, they were just faceless henchmen.  Canon fodder for superheroes and villains - it's why most enemies didn't have names they were just class types.  They weren't mean to have an identity.  As for the name and training, it was just for lore.  Artemis was the Goddess of the Hunt. CoH loved its greek references and because they used bows, traps, and blades they related it to her.  As for the Tibet reference, Ninja training + spiritual martial arts = Tibet because it's easy to reference and explain their martial arts background.  It's cliche but highly recognized as a place where one might go to train for mystical ninja powers and is also a very Comic Book thing to do.