Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7210441 times)

Codewalker

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17640 on: June 09, 2015, 02:46:40 AM »
please don't do anything 'rash'. I know thats been said in it's fair share of superhero movies and shows ETC right before the hero says "I've got to do it" or something like that.

This particular project has been in the works for at least the last 7 months. I'd hardly call it rash.

Quote
Please, please make sure that what ever it is legally avoids ticking off NCSoft and or confirm with them that it's ok.

Um, no to the underlined part.

As with Icon, our legal analysis is that this project does not constitute infringement of the copyright on the game client or violate its EULA (which is no longer a valid agreement anyway according to the EULA itself). We are not distributing the client, but rather a third-party tool that is compatible with the file formats used by the client and uses them to do interesting things. It is designed to require a legally acquired copy of the client, at least as much as it is possible to determine.

I have no contacts within NCSoft, and I'm not about to hit up some random level 1 support person who would have no clue what to do with it. In any event, asking permission to distribute tools that do not harm them in any way is simply ridiculous. If anything we are adding value to an IP that would otherwise be completely dead and worthless.

If Nate believes that the buyout negotiations are (1) still proceeding and (2) at a critical juncture that the release of this project at this time would put them in jeopardy, he has my contact info as well as Tony's and we can discuss a temporary delay if one is warranted. I would have to double check what others have told him but I believe he is already aware of this project and its goals.

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17641 on: June 09, 2015, 02:49:58 AM »
A word of caution from an unlikely source.

please don't do anything 'rash'. I know thats been said in it's fair share of superhero movies and shows ETC right before the hero says "I've got to do it" or something like that.

It's surprising to hear that codewalker and leandro and co. might have something to release soon, but we must be aware of the possible complications this may have for any CoX deal that might grant us a legal copy of the server code.

Please, please make sure that what ever it is legally avoids ticking off NCSoft and or confirm with them that it's ok.

I mean even if it's an offline client that allows players to solo game content and use dev/mod controls to start TFs ETC. it might be wise to ask NCSoft before releasing it.

We don't want the to say "no deal, deals off, your crew on titan made [blah here]"

There's always plan ZZZ but I hear that ones a real snore.

Since we the community and the titan developers are not involved with negotiations it doesn't matter what they do. And I seriously don't care what ncsoft thinks at this point. They dragged the negotiations on with our friends for too long and now this hostile take over crap. If they want my respect they are going to have to earn it again.

Want to know how they can earn my respect? No? humor me and come here... *shhh* ... come closer.... SELL THE DAMN GAME!

And thank you for all your work regardless Codewalker and crew. I really do appreciate it even if I sometimes seem negative.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 03:01:53 AM by Noyjitat »

Remaugen

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17642 on: June 09, 2015, 04:16:19 AM »
No, Tequila will not be needed. It's a community contributed add-on to things like Icon and the upcoming project to help keep them up to date, but Titan does not endorse or support its use due to it downloading the client files. These projects are designed only for use with copies that were legally acquired while the game was running.

If you have a working Issue 24 install that is usable with Icon, that's all you need. It's possible that Issue 23 may be supported eventually as Icon is able to, but probably not for the initial release.

Excellent, thanks!
We're almost there!  ;D

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Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17643 on: June 09, 2015, 04:22:08 AM »
Want to know how they can earn my respect? No? humor me and come here... *shhh* ... come closer.... SELL THE DAMN GAME!

And thank you for all your work regardless Codewalker and crew. I really do appreciate it even if I sometimes seem negative.

Amen to both sentiments. :)
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When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!


Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17645 on: June 09, 2015, 05:31:34 AM »
I mean even if it's an offline client that allows players to solo game content and use dev/mod controls to start TFs ETC. it might be wise to ask NCSoft before releasing it.

What needs to be said has already been said, so I'll just point out that there's an implicit "just" in there, like "even if it's just an offline client that allows players to solo game content and use dev/mode controls to start TFs..."

Uh, it would be easier for Codewalker to hand you a fully functioning server than do that.  That would require so much engine to exist I can't imagine somehow miracleing that much engine and somehow missing the rear view mirror and cup holders.

Whatever Codewalker has up his sleeve, it aint that.  Think smaller.  Think about what the client can do, think about what Icon can do, and what it can't do, and think about what Codewalker could add to the client without completely recreating the server engine from scratch in seven months.  Think in particular content.  The client has all the art assets of the game - maps, costumes, power animations and effects.  It doesn't really have mission content.  It knows what critters look like.  It doesn't know what they do.  Think about what a machinima editor can do with the game client, think about what someone like Samuraiko can do with the game client.  Extrapolate realistically outward from there.  Whatever it is, and I honestly don't know what it is myself, it'll probably give us more power to play with the client in some way.

Heck, since I don't know what it is, I'm free to guess (sometimes, there are advantages to not knowing: sometimes the devs themselves would tell me things *knowing* I could no longer comment on them; evil).  When I think about what's possible, and what Codewalker can reasonably do given the timeframe, I see two possibilities:

1.  Animation engine.  Basically a super demo system where a small engine connects to the I24 client and allows players to script up action they can then experience themselves.  Kind of like a mission architect, but with only hand waving.  Good for machinima editors if nothing else.

2.  Super Sims.  Basically, a MMO server that can talk to (a possibly modified) I24 client and allow people to see each other.  Essentially, multiplayer Icon.  Still mostly all you could do is emote at each other, but heck all MMOs actually start here anyway.

Guessing being what it is, who knows.  No one should assume I'm trying to drop hints, I don't know what it is for reals.  But I think that's within the ability of a team of volunteers to crack of the skill level and knowledge level I know at least Codewalker is at.  And both have the property that neither project would have copyright content within it explicitly.  Something to consider for people thinking about what's even remotely legal.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17646 on: June 09, 2015, 05:54:04 AM »
What needs to be said has already been said, so I'll just point out that there's an implicit "just" in there, like "even if it's just an offline client that allows players to solo game content and use dev/mode controls to start TFs..."

Uh, it would be easier for Codewalker to hand you a fully functioning server than do that.  That would require so much engine to exist I can't imagine somehow miracleing that much engine and somehow missing the rear view mirror and cup holders.

Whatever Codewalker has up his sleeve, it aint that.  Think smaller.  Think about what the client can do, think about what Icon can do, and what it can't do, and think about what Codewalker could add to the client without completely recreating the server engine from scratch in seven months.  Think in particular content.  The client has all the art assets of the game - maps, costumes, power animations and effects.  It doesn't really have mission content.  It knows what critters look like.  It doesn't know what they do.  Think about what a machinima editor can do with the game client, think about what someone like Samuraiko can do with the game client.  Extrapolate realistically outward from there.  Whatever it is, and I honestly don't know what it is myself, it'll probably give us more power to play with the client in some way.

Heck, since I don't know what it is, I'm free to guess (sometimes, there are advantages to not knowing: sometimes the devs themselves would tell me things *knowing* I could no longer comment on them; evil).  When I think about what's possible, and what Codewalker can reasonably do given the timeframe, I see two possibilities:

1.  Animation engine.  Basically a super demo system where a small engine connects to the I24 client and allows players to script up action they can then experience themselves.  Kind of like a mission architect, but with only hand waving.  Good for machinima editors if nothing else.

2.  Super Sims.  Basically, a MMO server that can talk to (a possibly modified) I24 client and allow people to see each other.  Essentially, multiplayer Icon.  Still mostly all you could do is emote at each other, but heck all MMOs actually start here anyway.

Guessing being what it is, who knows.  No one should assume I'm trying to drop hints, I don't know what it is for reals.  But I think that's within the ability of a team of volunteers to crack of the skill level and knowledge level I know at least Codewalker is at.  And both have the property that neither project would have copyright content within it explicitly.  Something to consider for people thinking about what's even remotely legal.


Soooo what you're saying is Codewalker is going to have a fully functioning game that will work perfect from launch day and it will all happen before my birthday in Septemeber!  ;)

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17647 on: June 09, 2015, 07:58:51 AM »

Soooo what you're saying is Codewalker is going to have a fully functioning game that will work perfect from launch day and it will all happen before my birthday in Septemeber!  ;)

Of course not.  I have no idea when your birthday is.

Styrj

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17648 on: June 09, 2015, 10:22:33 AM »
Thanks Leandro!   I was looking for a reason to put ish 24 beta back into my system, now I have one.

Looks like Tequila is working fine to download the files.

I also heartily agree that NCSoft could have left the game in maintenance mode either forever, or until they found others to keep developing it.  Shutting it down did nothing but alienate and anger many a CoH fan to the point that some of them will never play NCSoft games again.

Speaking of Tequila.....I need a drink.  :)

I think I'll have a Sam Adams Summer Ale!  :)

I whole hardily agree with Sinistar.  I have I24 and have been using it w/Icon (Launched w/Tequila - which works great BTW).  So, I'm ready to go with whatever Leandro, CW and crew give us to play with.  Huge vote of thanks too! :D
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  Infinity Server...

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17649 on: June 09, 2015, 12:51:29 PM »
You will need the i24 beta version for the new project. It's not compatible with the i23 version of the client.

I am avoiding replying to most of your comment because nothing I say will be diplomatic. But I am going to just ignore all the alarms in my head telling me to shut up and say: if NCsoft comes out and says "no deal, deals off, your crew on titan made [blah here]" then I, personally, will be glad we finally have an answer and can move on. I've been biting my tongue for two and a half years because of the "ongoing negotiations" and there comes a point where I just wonder, why the heck should I care. They shut down the game, when they could have easily kept it in maintenance mode with no more updates. I'm tired of feeling like we have to appease the Great God NC and hope for a Sign From Their Holy Offices. And now Agge is probably going to smack my post and wiggle her ban bat at me, so I better leave it at that.

The upcoming release is very limited, but from a developer perspective I find it very cool. I can't say any more because I already made Agge mad at me with this post, I don't want to make CW mad at me too. But keep your expectations in firm check; the initial release is going to be very very limited. But it's a start.
^Now that there's a post^ ;D  Bravo and thanks to you, Codewalker, and all involved for the hard work!!!

damienray

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17650 on: June 09, 2015, 02:17:07 PM »
Whatever it is, I say it's time. To hell with the NC peeps.  I mean c'mon already... it's been years while they sit there with their "toys" and don't want to share.  "Nyah, nyah - it's our game and you can't have it... ttthhhhbbbb!". Puhleeze.

Thezanman

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17651 on: June 09, 2015, 02:22:29 PM »
Would you really give up your whole chance to get the game back just for a small development?

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17652 on: June 09, 2015, 03:39:24 PM »
As with Icon, our legal analysis is that this project does not constitute infringement of the copyright on the game client or violate its EULA (which is no longer a valid agreement anyway according to the EULA itself). We are not distributing the client, but rather a third-party tool that is compatible with the file formats used by the client and uses them to do interesting things. It is designed to require a legally acquired copy of the client, at least as much as it is possible to determine.

If Nate believes that the buyout negotiations are (1) still proceeding and (2) at a critical juncture that the release of this project at this time would put them in jeopardy, he has my contact info as well as Tony's and we can discuss a temporary delay if one is warranted. I would have to double check what others have told him but I believe he is already aware of this project and its goals.

This reassures me.

What needs to be said has already been said, so I'll just point out that there's an implicit "just" in there, like "even if it's just an offline client that allows players to solo game content and use dev/mode controls to start TFs..."

Uh, it would be easier for Codewalker to hand you a fully functioning server than do that.  That would require so much engine to exist I can't imagine somehow miracleing that much engine and somehow missing the rear view mirror and cup holders.

Whatever Codewalker has up his sleeve, it aint that.  Think smaller.  Think about what the client can do, think about what Icon can do, and what it can't do, and think about what Codewalker could add to the client without completely recreating the server engine from scratch in seven months.  Think in particular content.  The client has all the art assets of the game - maps, costumes, power animations and effects.  It doesn't really have mission content.  It knows what critters look like.  It doesn't know what they do.  Think about what a machinima editor can do with the game client, think about what someone like Samuraiko can do with the game client.  Extrapolate realistically outward from there.  Whatever it is, and I honestly don't know what it is myself, it'll probably give us more power to play with the client in some way.

this helps calm my danger sensors.

As a last point to close off final worries; IF NCSoft should come a calling with C&D OR ANY B.S. I should think it would be a wise Idea to harbor any resent and restate the capacity of the software developed and Strongly Express how it doesn't pose a threat to them, their IPs or their finances.

That and if they allow, offer them profits if they allow you to charge. *trollface* sorry probably ignore this point as it's extremely unlikely.

I actually have a lot of how to say 'faith?' in Codewalker and Co's ability. I wouldn't put stuff like a battle simulator or arena simulator past them given 7 months. I myself had a thought a while back that it might not be that hard to for example program in pets stat info for summon in arena pet fights.

SEGS seemed to hint mission text could be entered, so I figure adding a few glowie missions (no enemies) wouldn't be too hard either.

not so hot on the idea of 'online Icon' though as Codewalker has expressed that Icon disables all online features of the client on purpose. but I'd support anything we can get that doesn't cause problems.

All these rev eng projects always bring a big worry in the back of my mind; the worry being NCSoft and their capability to do the 'Final Update' (send a message to their software on computers who have it and are online, force the updater/launcher to run and do a full reverse update erasing the content of all the files.)

Mean people do exist in Corporatia (Corporate land).
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17653 on: June 09, 2015, 04:01:26 PM »
I can see where Codewalker is going with this, in a way; he's continuing efforts he feels are not against the EULA.

My concern is this:

Talk of reverse engineering efforts in a public space on the Internet always leaves me jittery, to say the least; people can say, "To Hell with NCSoft" all they want, but NCSoft could just as easily pull the plug on selling the game before the plug is in all the way.  That isn't a future I want to see happen.  I would hate to see NCSoft jump the gun in a very non-diplomatic fashion at even a misconception of Icon's capabilities.

Codewalker

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17654 on: June 09, 2015, 04:42:14 PM »
If NCSoft pulls the plug on negotiations because of a hint of an upcoming project (that in our best estimate use of does not violate the EULA), and which details have not even been revealed yet... well I'd say they were not negotiating in good faith to begin with.

If we defer its release indefinitely because of the possibility of negotiations, then I'd say that the tactic of stringing people along with no intent of following through to keep them quiet and under control is working wonderfully.

r00tb0ySlim

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17655 on: June 09, 2015, 04:52:36 PM »
If NCSoft pulls the plug on negotiations because of a hint of an upcoming project (that in our best estimate use of does not violate the EULA), and which details have not even been revealed yet... well I'd say they were not negotiating in good faith to begin with.

If we defer its release indefinitely because of the possibility of negotiations, then I'd say that the tactic of stringing people along with no intent of following through to keep them quiet and under control is working wonderfully.

Agreed.

RGladden

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17656 on: June 09, 2015, 05:17:34 PM »
If NCSoft pulls the plug on negotiations because of a hint of an upcoming project (that in our best estimate use of does not violate the EULA), and which details have not even been revealed yet... well I'd say they were not negotiating in good faith to begin with.

If we defer its release indefinitely because of the possibility of negotiations, then I'd say that the tactic of stringing people along with no intent of following through to keep them quiet and under control is working wonderfully.

Well said. 

What motivates the powers that be at NCSoft is hard to discern.  I think the fearsome negative reaction by the CoH fan base caught them by surprise.  It dwarfed the sort of reactions they had experienced when they closed down some of their other games.  However, if you've monitored other boards and news sites on the net that deal with mmorpgs you've undoubtedly noticed there was a negative reaction among gaming fans of all stripes.  As a result, NCSoft's public/business image took a blow from which it has not recovered.  Repairing that image may be one factor nudging them to reopen negotiations with Nate and crew about selling the IP.

So, NCS, if you have minions paying attention to the goings on of this board, it is MY opinion that hanging onto the IP/servers/etal, does you no good in either the short-or-long term.  Turning loose of them can only do you good.


Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17657 on: June 09, 2015, 05:35:12 PM »
I can see where Codewalker is going with this, in a way; he's continuing efforts he feels are not against the EULA.

My concern is this:

Talk of reverse engineering efforts in a public space on the Internet always leaves me jittery, to say the least; people can say, "To Hell with NCSoft" all they want, but NCSoft could just as easily pull the plug on selling the game before the plug is in all the way.  That isn't a future I want to see happen.  I would hate to see NCSoft jump the gun in a very non-diplomatic fashion at even a misconception of Icon's capabilities.

Keep in mind, I'm the person who said even outing and discussing the fact that negotiations are happening at all was a bad idea in the first place.  But once that genie was out of the bottle, it was out. 

Things like Icon are already out there, and Icon for me lies on a continuum of activity stretching way back.  While there is some reverse engineering of technology involved in what Codewalker is doing, what he's released in Icon and I presume in anything he's contemplating releasing in the near future are really client-mods.  Mods for a game client no one can use to actually play the game itself anymore.  I honestly believe if NCSoft terminates negotiations because of anything Codewalker is doing, I would assume they were really just looking for an excuse to bail out.  At some point, we can all hope for the negotiations to go well, but we all must do what we have to do.

RGladden

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17658 on: June 09, 2015, 05:48:36 PM »
Who DID out the negotions, by the way?

Graydar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17659 on: June 09, 2015, 05:53:31 PM »
I got a new guitar! My fingers are on fire and I'm trying to work out how to translate the original City of Heroes theme to guitar. Has anyone done this before? Have any tabs or anything?