Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7272066 times)

rookery.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26020 on: October 20, 2016, 04:09:20 PM »
So very much. I tried out CO a bit and immediately began missing the old event.

I'm doing the ESO Halloween events and longing for the all-action door busting Halloween event from COH. NOw I just sit around and wait for a mob to respawn OR for a dark anchor to drop.

:\

Biz

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26021 on: October 20, 2016, 06:33:33 PM »
I'm doing the ESO Halloween events and longing for the all-action door busting Halloween event from COH. NOw I just sit around and wait for a mob to respawn OR for a dark anchor to drop.

:\

Sometimes after I eat Taco Bell I have to drop a dark anchor

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26022 on: October 20, 2016, 08:48:14 PM »
Sometimes after I eat Taco Bell I have to drop a dark anchor

Perhaps you should cut back on the number of times you eat an entire Taco Bell.

LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26023 on: October 20, 2016, 08:56:33 PM »
I'm doing the ESO Halloween events and longing for the all-action door busting Halloween event from COH. NOw I just sit around and wait for a mob to respawn OR for a dark anchor to drop.

:\

My favorite thing was to park my fire/kin corr above  doors of that u shaped motel with the 200 other ppl and drop aoe attacks and do fulcrum shifts.  The teams would pull the mobs together, I'd fulcrum, then we'd all drop aoes.  pretty sure we were hitting the dmg caps.
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LadyVamp

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26024 on: October 20, 2016, 09:14:22 PM »
Interesting point.  I made the case on the old CoH forums that, in this context, it is impossible for the game to cheat "for" the player, because it is impossible for the game to cheat against the NPCs.  And the reason is because cheating contains a perception component.

In the strictest sense, I would agree that it is impossible to cheat against an NPC.  But consider this, what if the computer was fudging the numbers so that you, as a highly experienced player could never lose a fight?  I, as a guy who plays maybe a few hours a week, isn't likely to notice because I won't be able to get the power ups, enhances, tools, etc. to get to the point that such fudging wouldn't be necessary to advance the story.  I would argue that in cheating in your favor, the game actually cheated against you also.  You won't get as much of a thrill out of that easy boss fight as I would against the same boss.  Since I could lose, I get to enjoy the win.  You can't lose so it's not really an accomplishment.  In that way, I'd argue in a more general sense that in cheating against the NPC, it did cause a hurt.  That hurt being a reduction in your enjoyment of the game.
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Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26025 on: October 20, 2016, 09:36:35 PM »
Perhaps you should cut back on the number of times you eat an entire Taco Bell.

Bound to be some way to monetize the ability to turn a bell into an anchor with one's digestive system.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26026 on: October 20, 2016, 11:24:06 PM »
In the strictest sense, I would agree that it is impossible to cheat against an NPC.  But consider this, what if the computer was fudging the numbers so that you, as a highly experienced player could never lose a fight?  I, as a guy who plays maybe a few hours a week, isn't likely to notice because I won't be able to get the power ups, enhances, tools, etc. to get to the point that such fudging wouldn't be necessary to advance the story.  I would argue that in cheating in your favor, the game actually cheated against you also.  You won't get as much of a thrill out of that easy boss fight as I would against the same boss.  Since I could lose, I get to enjoy the win.  You can't lose so it's not really an accomplishment.  In that way, I'd argue in a more general sense that in cheating against the NPC, it did cause a hurt.  That hurt being a reduction in your enjoyment of the game.

Except here you aren't talking about cheating per se, you are talking about ruining a game player's experience by generating a result that is entirely undesirable.  I say this issue isn't about cheating, because the issue would be equally bad if it occurred entirely without any conventional "fudging" of the normal gameplay mechanics.  Whether it happened because the game mechanics explicitly caused it, or because the computer overrode those mechanics with exceptions, I think the player experience would be no more, and no less degraded.

Consider also that in this case the perception argument still holds.  The gameplay experience in the context you are descrbing relies on the player believing that they could lose, and that therefore the act of winning is a noteworthy accomplishment.  This is true whether the player is correct or not.  If the computer creates a situation where the player can not lose but the player perceives a threat of losing, the player will still feel the same sense of accomplishment.

This isn't a trivial distinction either.  Game designers can, and often do, explicitly attempt to psychologically project the sense of impending failure to a higher degree than is quantitatively true, because the psychology of risk is more important in a game to the reality of risk.  Consider the health bar.  The health bar gives a visual cue to how close to death the player is.  But does it?  The health bar is usually linear.  If you get hit 8 times and you see 25% left, you perceive that you're about two hits from dying.  The last 25% of the health bar will only protect you as much as the first 25%.  But that's not always true.  In the case where you are an SR scrapper with the passive powers, your damage resistances goes up as health goes down.  That last 25% actually takes a significant amount more damage to remove than the first 25%.  Visually you only have 25% health left, but in combat terms you are actually somewhat farther away from death than that would imply.  That means the SR scaling passive resistances actually play a numbers game in which you will feel more risk than you are currently actually facing (at least to a first-order approximation: I understand of course the situation is more complex than that for a number of reasons).

The SR resistances don't just increase the damage mitigation and thus the resiliency of SR scrappers.  They do so in a way that preserves, and even enhances, the perception of risk in combat for the typical player.  So surviving a fight often feels like more of an accomplishment than it would have been if those passives had just granted flat resistance. 

Since we're talking about cheating, it is worth mentioning the related issue: manipulation.  Games always manipulate player perception.  Sometimes that manipulation is acceptable and sometimes it isn't.  I think the SR passives were an example of acceptable manipulation.  What they did was totally transparent in terms of their literal function.  But a good game designer would also know that the specific way they were implemented lended themselves to projecting a skewed perspective on what they did.  Because that skewed perspective enhanced the excitement of the gameplay experience, I don't consider it a form of perceptual "cheating".  It is acceptable psychological warfare.  And again, I think that is because the only net effect is to enhance player game play experience.  If that manipulation harmed players either quantitatively or harmed their experience, I might feel differently.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26027 on: October 21, 2016, 12:23:45 AM »
one thing that comes to mind were the PPP. the moment of glory that players would have loved to have. Cheating yes, but this mission was fun.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26028 on: October 21, 2016, 12:35:05 AM »
It's time once again for ...
The Pantless Report!

Hello fellow pants wearers.  I just got off the phone with some higher ups that informed me that I shouldn't say nothing about the upcoming deal.  Well the heck with that!  Right?  So anyways, the deal is all but inked when it is learned that the City of Heroes game engine cheats.  Well this pretty much blew everybody away.  They realized stuff like FrostFire, a relatively low-level Outcast, had Fire Imps and Ice pets and he could fly.  They even uncovered the fact that Malta Group Sappers never miss, never.  They decided to not purchase CoX after all.  Iron Wolf was so upset, he nearly updated the first post on this thread!

It's a whole new ball-game now, folks.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26029 on: October 21, 2016, 12:50:54 AM »
one thing that comes to mind were the PPP. the moment of glory that players would have loved to have. Cheating yes, but this mission was fun.

Are you referring to that mission with the wall to wall Paragon Protectors?  That mission was one a lot of players learned to hate, although I generally looked forward to it.  Also, badge hunter.

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26030 on: October 21, 2016, 01:29:30 AM »
One of the paragon protector types had elude, which, yeah, very annoying.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26031 on: October 21, 2016, 03:47:50 AM »
Are you referring to that mission with the wall to wall Paragon Protectors?  That mission was one a lot of players learned to hate, although I generally looked forward to it.  Also, badge hunter.

That mission was a blast. if you planned ahead you could often beat them out.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26032 on: October 21, 2016, 07:20:07 AM »
That mission was a blast. if you planned ahead you could often beat them out.

And oh, the elation when you managed to get that last HP on them the split second before the MOG hit, and you watch them hit the floor, glowing, but too late.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26033 on: October 21, 2016, 08:30:02 AM »
And oh, the elation when you managed to get that last HP on them the split second before the MOG hit, and you watch them hit the floor, glowing, but too late.

The absolute best was when you were in mid-air activating Eagle's Claw, then they activated MoG, then Eagle's Claw hit and killed them right through MoG (the computer rolls tohit upon activation, not when it appears the damage lands).

I miss that slow, goofy, goofy attack.

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26034 on: October 21, 2016, 09:31:11 PM »
Sometimes after I eat Taco Bell I have to drop a dark anchor
Does it have the dark tendrel effect?

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26035 on: October 21, 2016, 09:31:49 PM »
ARE WE THERE YET?

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26036 on: October 21, 2016, 09:35:02 PM »
ARE WE THERE YET?

Where ever you go, there you are.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26037 on: October 21, 2016, 11:10:15 PM »
Consider also that in this case the perception argument still holds.  The gameplay experience in the context you are descrbing relies on the player believing that they could lose, and that therefore the act of winning is a noteworthy accomplishment.  This is true whether the player is correct or not.  If the computer creates a situation where the player can not lose but the player perceives a threat of losing, the player will still feel the same sense of accomplishment.

This isn't a trivial distinction either.  Game designers can, and often do, explicitly attempt to psychologically project the sense of impending failure to a higher degree than is quantitatively true, because the psychology of risk is more important in a game to the reality of risk.  Consider the health bar.  The health bar gives a visual cue to how close to death the player is.  But does it?  The health bar is usually linear.  If you get hit 8 times and you see 25% left, you perceive that you're about two hits from dying.  The last 25% of the health bar will only protect you as much as the first 25%.  But that's not always true.  In the case where you are an SR scrapper with the passive powers, your damage resistances goes up as health goes down.  That last 25% actually takes a significant amount more damage to remove than the first 25%.  Visually you only have 25% health left, but in combat terms you are actually somewhat farther away from death than that would imply.  That means the SR scaling passive resistances actually play a numbers game in which you will feel more risk than you are currently actually facing (at least to a first-order approximation: I understand of course the situation is more complex than that for a number of reasons).


The first paragraph is one reason I often feel many newer games leave me feeling without any accomplishment, as I felt completely "safe" and not in danger.  One reason I sometimes up the difficulty of a game, or even mod it to enhance the difficulty in a meaningful way, is to give myself a sense of being able to lose.  I want to have to save before engaging those raiders in fallout 4, or sometimes thugs in deus ex for example.  I don't mind if I die so much as I want to know that I could have been killed a few times trying to take a part on.

But as for health and the risk of losing, I think the best games make it so health is only a measure of how well you did in a fight, rather than how much you lose as to how much risk you had.  Some games a full health bar is meaningless; damage is high enough you could die in mere moments, or even a blink of an eye.  Why I liked corruptors more than tankers and defenders at times, was because there was more risk involved with the lower defenses.  Or like why I play fallout 4 with arbitration when I am actually seeking a challenge out of it, recently for example I took out two thugs with arbitration configured such I could have died instantly 3 times, as the AI got THREE shots off at me with a weapon capable of one-shotting me and missed three times.

I came across a little diner as I often do when I first start fallout 4, and came across two thugs demanding money for some drugs they sold to a junkie.  His mom of course wasn't having it.  My usual approach is to shoot them both with a pipe revolver/bolt action, the first with an aimed shot and the second with a vats crit shot.  This time however things didn't pan out, and the second thug was left with a sliver of health left. Her head was mortally wounded, but she was still firing at me.  In that moment I could have easily died.  I got lucky and dogmeat finished her off.

Moments like that are, to me, fun, because there is RISK to me.  The risk of dying and "Losing".  Granted, I would have only needed a quick reload to try again, but the risk was there.  This is also inspite having 6 endurance and thus a "high" health rating for a low level character.

As for cheating against the npc, there is no such thing as merely cheating against the developer.  You circumvent the challenge set before you by the developer who, we'd hope, wants you to succeed honestly.

As for who can cheat if we only focus on the npc, the npc's sometimes do, but the only time you really see "cheating" from an npc or developer is when they break the consistency of rules formula that difficult games have to generally strive for.  Forr a blatant example; Mario Kart games and the AI's tendency to rubberband to catch up with the player even driving at impossibly high speeds and ignoring collision, thus ensuring they'll always be 2-3 seconds behind at the most.

Or fallout 4's npc's spamming grenades; they can throw a grenade with laser precision every 7.5 seconds infinitely(and I've seen them throw grenades even MORE frequently).  On high difficulties, this quickly becomes punishing, especially since often if the AI is far enough away they'll throw a grenade at you and it'll detonate the instant it's within range, and you get no telegraphing or heads up warning that a very hard to see grenade was heading your way, killing you, and if your on survival difficulty setting you back 20 minutes-over an hour due to a lack of beds to save in since you last "slept to save".

Or a non-npc example: Fallout 4's survival mode and making you sleep to save and removing console, which due to the buggyness of the game, is flat cheating on the developers behalf, albeit unintentional.  The fact is the game can on that difficulty "Cheat!" by crashing after you played for 30 minutes-2 hours without saving due to making sure you couldn't save anywhere within reason due to overlooked map designs.

Those are a few examples where the players perception gets blown and they end up seeing an unfair game thats cheating.  Most players won't notice a harder npc or anything or consider it "cheap" if the rules are consistently followed.  But NPC's/AI cheat all the time in earlier or even modern games(in fact I would say the NPC's in games cheat far, far more today than ever before).  It's just only really seen unless the game is hard for the wrong reasons, usually those wrong reasons being that the AI does in fact, cheat.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 07:35:32 PM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26038 on: October 22, 2016, 03:23:31 AM »
Where ever you go, there you are.
Imagine that?

Mistress Urd

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26039 on: October 22, 2016, 10:27:57 PM »
One of the paragon protector types had elude, which, yeah, very annoying.

Actually, I hated the ones with Moment of Glory because they cheated you out of EXP and INF if they activate it.