Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 5033884 times)

CG

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26620 on: January 23, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »
The stories from Season 5 seem peripheral and like an afterthought for a very good reason. 

When JMS started the show he had the entire show plotted from first to last season with all the events paced and spaced out to tell a tight and structured long-form story. 

Because B5 was a creation of the monster dysfunctional deal known as the PTEN (which defies quick description -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Time_Entertainment_Network), when it collapsed in 1997, JMS suddenly had to complete the series in season 4.  He therefore had to pack all the critical events of season 5 into the season 4 episodes in order to complete his story (you may notice it seems a tiny bit rushed). 

Late in the 4th season, a deal was made with TNT to host a fifth season, but by then it was far too late to change the scripts or move any of the events from the end of 4 to 5 except that they could move the already made "Sleeping in Light" to the end of season 5 from 4 (which is why Claudia Christian is in SIL) and replace it with a cobbled together "postscript" episode.

Also JMS was in total burn-out after his unprecedented episode-writing marathon and got other writers to do a lot of the scripts.

There was another problem. 

I have the scripts series for B5 and in there, JMS revealed that he lost all his notes that he had accumulated for Season 5.  They were in a binder in his hotel room and he went out to an event. When he came back, the book was gone.  Nobody at the hotel would fess up to it.  He even went diving in the hotel's dumpster (you can imagine what ends up in a hotel dumpster) with no luck.  So, all his ideas that were remaining for S5 (and not already used in S4) were lost.  This is the main reason, according to JMS, that S5 felt "thin".

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26621 on: January 23, 2017, 08:37:31 PM »
As a loyal 8 yr vet of CoH who has tried to follow the various efforts to keep it alive but who doesn't live on these forums (which seem to have dissolved into a giant chat room, making information sharing impossible), can someone:

1. Point me to an update if there is still an arcane deal being made with NCSoft after all of this time
2. Tell me if is still possible to get into Atlas Park, and how that can be done

It's difficult to maintain hope after 4+ years, but also frustrating when I seek out information and it's so hard to find.

The information in the first post of this thread is pretty much the only authoritative information that exists, and likely will exist short of a breakthrough sufficiently large that you wouldn't miss it no matter what you were reading on these forums.  This thread started as a discussion thread about the "New Efforts" that were leaked incorrectly years ago, but honestly the reason it has "dissolved" into a chat room - and I'm as much an instigator as anyone - is because without this thread staying open, people would just keep opening new threads asking "any news?" over and over again every week or two.  Experience tells me that if that were to happen, those threads would quickly degenerate into threads discussing why people shouldn't be starting those threads.  The original forums actually had a couple placeholder threads like this for exactly the same reason.  It can be frustrating at times I know.

As Tahquitz mentions, there's a specific thread created that is locked so only the mods can post there called the wake me up when there's news thread.  The intent was that people could subscribe to that thread and be notified when anyone posts there.  As of today, there are exactly two posts in that thread.  The last one was in 2015.  Notably, that thread was created after about a year passed with no news and people like yourself wanted a way to be notified when real actual news emerged.

Remaugen

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26622 on: January 25, 2017, 07:07:06 AM »
*Sigh*

I really thought we would be home by now. . .
We're almost there!  ;D

The RNG hates me.

kaaduu1280

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26623 on: January 25, 2017, 09:08:38 PM »
*Sigh*

I really thought we would be home by now. . .

Not the only one. And if not home, at least have SOME kind of news from them.  This has been taxing my patience so badly...
"Do not attribute to Malice what can instead be attributed to Stupidity." -NakaTeleeli

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26624 on: January 26, 2017, 02:02:33 AM »
*Sigh*

I really thought we would be home by now. . .

Well here is something to hold you over. It was released 2 days ago on an analysis why CoX died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahAati0d2c

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26625 on: January 26, 2017, 03:36:48 AM »
Well here is something to hold you over. It was released 2 days ago on an analysis why CoX died:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahAati0d2c

Its worth watching, but there isn't a major revelation or novel analysis in there.  I can summarize the video position on why CoX died:

1.  No one really knows
2.  There wasn't an obvious fatal problem internal to the game that some MMOs fall victim to.
3.  There wasn't an obvious fatal problem with the game community that cause some MMOs to fail
4.  Its probably due to a combination of a set of problems, namely:
4a.  It wasn't making enough money to compel NCSoft to keep it alive
4b.  NCSoft expectations for the game in North America was far higher than the game was producing.
4c.  NCSoft corporate was based in a gaming culture incompatible with the game (i.e. CoX was unattractive to the Korean native market)
4d.  NCSoft wanted to pare down its offerings to make room for attempting to launch new games it thought would be more successful


Overall, the thesis of the video seems to be that NCSoft wanted more from its MMO titles, it didn't have the capacity to expand without eliminating lower performing titles, CoX was the obvious lower performing target (whether it was profitable or not), CoX did not have sufficient champions in NCSoft corporate, and NCSoft decided not to sell the property for unspecified reasons.

The last one itself is likely (according to the video) a combination of a lot of little things not one smoking gun.  They were not comfortable selling, they couldn't be convinced to overcome that discomfort, there wasn't enough in it for them to try, there was the risk that someone else could make it successful and steal customers from their future offerings, there was the risk a sustained CoX would reduce the likelihood of converting those players to players of other NCSoft titles.  The combination of all of those outweighed the potential to cause bad will with the existing CoX player base.

silvers1

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26626 on: January 26, 2017, 05:09:21 AM »
Quote
The combination of all of those outweighed the potential to cause bad will with the existing CoX player base.

I think they misjudged badly on that point.   I've read plenty of online posts from people saying they will never touch
another of their games.  I count myself among them.

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Winter Fable

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26627 on: January 26, 2017, 06:02:15 AM »

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26628 on: January 26, 2017, 06:03:29 AM »
I think they misjudged badly on that point.   I've read plenty of online posts from people saying they will never touch
another of their games.  I count myself among them.

It seems pretty clear they underestimated the enthusiasm of the CoX playerbase.  However, I do not believe there is any evidence that ended up having a material impact on the company overall.  I see no evidence that any NCSoft title, including the ones that followed City of Heroes' shutdown, were negatively impacted in any measurable way.  And I did go looking.

Dev7on

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26629 on: January 26, 2017, 02:46:59 PM »
Hey guys, a channel name nerdSlayer recently posted video called "Death of a Game: City of Heroes" which he tries his best to explain why and how City of Heroes was shut down.  See if this is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahAati0d2c

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26630 on: January 26, 2017, 04:14:55 PM »
I think they misjudged badly on that point.   I've read plenty of online posts from people saying they will never touch
another of their games.  I count myself among them.
I play L2 every now and then but that's mainly cause I did pre shutdown. I don't give them a penny though.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26631 on: January 26, 2017, 09:50:56 PM »
Hey guys, a channel name nerdSlayer recently posted video called "Death of a Game: City of Heroes" which he tries his best to explain why and how City of Heroes was shut down.  See if this is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahAati0d2c


Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26632 on: January 26, 2017, 09:54:55 PM »
I play L2 every now and then but that's mainly cause I did pre shutdown. I don't give them a penny though.

It is an interesting intellectual exercise to attempt to determine if it hurts them more if you avoid all NCSoft games, or if you play all NCSoft games that allow you to play for free without contributing money to them.  Every player playing for free costs them some small amount of money to support, but gains them an intangible benefit in increased participation in the ecosystem.  Short of doing unethical things like being a nuisance to other innocent players, I wonder if there is a way to quantify at what point you cost them more than you benefit them.

Of course, in the marginal case there's no noticeable effect either way.  But I wonder if there is a cumulative one.  Another way to state the big question is: while you need people to pay, separate from that is there ever such a thing as having too many free to play players.

MGLZadok

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26633 on: January 27, 2017, 03:30:15 AM »
I think they misjudged badly on that point.   I've read plenty of online posts from people saying they will never touch
another of their games.  I count myself among them.



I am among them as well.  CoX was the final straw.  I also played Exteel and Tabula Rasa, both sunset way before CoX.  That's time I invested that I'll never get back, but I hadn't invested nearly as much as I did in CoX.  For the longest time, I wished them ill in all business dealings so they could be bought by someone who would be reasonable enough to at least entertain the idea of bring CoX back (or even an updated sequel).  My hatred has died down, but not my monetary protest.  I realize they're not hurting for my money, but I can sleep at night, dammit.
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Mistress Urd

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26634 on: January 27, 2017, 06:10:16 AM »
I am among them as well.  CoX was the final straw.  I also played Exteel and Tabula Rasa, both sunset way before CoX.  That's time I invested that I'll never get back, but I hadn't invested nearly as much as I did in CoX.  For the longest time, I wished them ill in all business dealings so they could be bought by someone who would be reasonable enough to at least entertain the idea of bring CoX back (or even an updated sequel).  My hatred has died down, but not my monetary protest.  I realize they're not hurting for my money, but I can sleep at night, dammit.

Me too, no NC Soft games for me. No matter how much friends ask for me to join in. NC Soft games are banned until I can play CoH again.

Lycantropus

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26635 on: January 27, 2017, 07:25:18 AM »
That was actually an interesting watch, and pretty much sums up the conclusions that were brought here before. Intellectually I can't even say I disagree.

I still won't buy into another NCSoft game, or play one, on principle. While it *may* have been a good 'business' decision, I don't think it was a good 'human' decision which eroded any good faith players had in their products, and that many of us players refuse to forget is telling. It's one of the few powers we as consumers possess, and it still speaks volumes today. I imagine it influences how they conduct business even now. There could well be games they could shut down, but I bet they're taking a second glance (as are other game publishing companies) before they make that call, and are erring on the side of caution. If our actions save another community from this, than maybe we've done our job... if we save more, even better.

Heroes don't always choose what they do to make things better for themselves, but those that come after, and to set the example for the future. It is merely an extension of 'what we do'. Never played Wildstar, though have heard about its rocky road to staying afloat... I still wish them all the best for their community to stick together, and still be able to enjoy their world, and hope that we played some small part in preventing any decisions to can it early on.

I tend to avoid this thread because I refuse to get my hopes up or get caught in a debate (preferring to check the "wake me up" thread) and to see what's doing in Paragon Chat, through which I do get to see my City again in some form. Just wanted to toss in my solidarity with those who don't purchase NC products. A lot of folks say that they discount folks that do that, but I'm sure it still shows up in the numbers... every time... and *that* they notice.

Also hopefully, they will occasionally be reminded why...

Lyc~

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26636 on: January 27, 2017, 08:07:54 AM »
It is an interesting intellectual exercise to attempt to determine if it hurts them more if you avoid all NCSoft games, or if you play all NCSoft games that allow you to play for free without contributing money to them.  Every player playing for free costs them some small amount of money to support, but gains them an intangible benefit in increased participation in the ecosystem.  Short of doing unethical things like being a nuisance to other innocent players, I wonder if there is a way to quantify at what point you cost them more than you benefit them.

Of course, in the marginal case there's no noticeable effect either way.  But I wonder if there is a cumulative one.  Another way to state the big question is: while you need people to pay, separate from that is there ever such a thing as having too many free to play players.
I thought about that too. Personally I am kinda at the point where I feel like we cant hurt them too much because(bear with the horrible analogy) if Gandalf is CoX and the Balrog is NCsoft. we cant have them taking the game over the edge with them.

Brigadine

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26637 on: January 27, 2017, 08:08:36 AM »
I am among them as well.  CoX was the final straw.  I also played Exteel and Tabula Rasa, both sunset way before CoX.  That's time I invested that I'll never get back, but I hadn't invested nearly as much as I did in CoX.  For the longest time, I wished them ill in all business dealings so they could be bought by someone who would be reasonable enough to at least entertain the idea of bring CoX back (or even an updated sequel).  My hatred has died down, but not my monetary protest.  I realize they're not hurting for my money, but I can sleep at night, dammit.
I LOVED exteel. Whyed they kill it?!

AmberOfDzu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26638 on: January 28, 2017, 01:24:33 AM »
To be fair, in 1790 the largest state by population was Virginia with about 750,000 people, and that included the people in what is today West Virginia.  Otherwise, the "large" states had about 300k-400k populations.  Rhode Island had about 69k (fewer at the time of ratification) and by population the smallest state was Delaware with about 59k.  Excluding Virginia, the smallest state had about 1/7th the population of the largest.  Today, the smallest by population (Wyoming) has about 1/67th the population of the largest (California).

Discounting Stubhub, every NFL stadium can seat the 1790 population of Delaware except one: Oakland Coliseum (capacity: 56,063).  Five of the original thirteen colonies have lower 1790 populations than record attendance at Disneyland (~100k): Delaware, Georgia, Maine, Rhode Island, and Vermont. 

And here's a fun fact: the original state of Virginia (which back then included current West Virginia) had approximately the same size and population in 1790 as North Dakota does today.  Virginia had a higher population in 1790 than three states do today: Alaska, Vermont, and Wyoming.

Reaching back a bit here; but I found another interesting "Redraw the States" article:

"What If U.S. States Were Shaped According to Economics?"
http://www.realclearscience.com/quick_and_clear_science/2017/01/27/what_if_us_states_were_shaped_according_to_economics.html

The proxy for economics is commuting inter-connectivity. I'd love to see their algorithm in more detail. My best guess is that clustering seeks to find the subregions which maximize the fraction of all commutes which begin and end in the same one.

Edit: adding an image, because it's pretty:

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #26639 on: January 28, 2017, 01:53:56 AM »
The proxy for economics is commuting inter-connectivity. I'd love to see their algorithm in more detail. My best guess is that clustering seeks to find the subregions which maximize the fraction of all commutes which begin and end in the same one.

Interesting.  Based on what I read, it appears the best way to think about their paper is to think of a workplace commuter as being like a flow of water.  Looking at all of the commuters they have data for, those commuters "flow" naturally to concentrations of workplace activity: places where there are more workplaces than residences.  For every location on the map there is a preferred general direction where most or all of the commuters travel.  These majority flows demarcate something analogous to a watershed or drainage basin.  What they call commuter defined states is analogous to dividing America into states defined by its geographc watersheds.