Pieces of CoH on our computers

[chaparralshrub]

This may be useful to Plan Z later, so I'm posting it here now.

Some of the pieces of CoH shouldn't directly require contact with a server: the character creation fields, and the Architect system should be on our computers. Would it be possible for those of us with computer knowledge to be able to make ways that we could access them while the CoH servers are offline?

I remember discussion on this, the character creation screen at least, but it strikes me that MA should be available as well, and so far nobody has mentioned it. In fact, the MA arcs stored on our hard drives may even be playable...

[chaparralshrub]

*bump*

This got knocked off the front page so fast I'm not sure anybody saw it...

[Knightslayer]

I'm pretty sure there already is an independent CoH character creator - it's just outdated by a couple of years.
And I know at some point someone made an app where you could edit/create MA missions through a text based editor.

[chaparralshrub]

Is it possible to play them, by any chance? I'm pretty sure the interface in Architect Entertainment just launches a sub-app that is in the code on your hard drive, so if we could launch that...

[Knightslayer]

Here's a link to the thread about the CoH character creator.
No idea about the AE, maybe one of Titan's code savvy people will eventually come up with it? (though I'm guessing they are all quite busy with looking into what it'd take to run the game)

[Vulpy]

Here's a link to the thread about the CoH character creator.

I don't think your link made it into the text, there. >.>

[Knightslayer]

I don't think your link made it into the text, there. >.>

D'oh! Got distracted! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,4958.0.html
Thanks!

[Thirty-Seven]

Is it possible to play them, by any chance? I'm pretty sure the interface in Architect Entertainment just launches a sub-app that is in the code on your hard drive, so if we could launch that...

While I see what you are asking for... and want it too... it couldn't be used to develop Plan Z in any meaningful way since it is the property of NCSoft, and using it to develop another project would be a huge no-no.

[Codewalker]

Is it possible to play them, by any chance? I'm pretty sure the interface in Architect Entertainment just launches a sub-app that is in the code on your hard drive, so if we could launch that...

No, you can't play the arcs offline.

Parts of the editor interface might be able to function, but given that they attempt to sync to the server periodically even that wouldn't be easy.

Actually playing the arc requires a map server, which always runs remote. It works just like a regular mission. Even in test mode you can still invite other players to your team, for example.

[chaparralshrub]

Yeah, I know about that thread, and I know that it was hinted that Codewalker would be capable of getting us access at least as far as the character creation screen. I started this thread because I wanted to talk about Architect.

Here's why: NCSoft does not own the stuff we made on Architect, and the client is free to download. That means we should be on solid legal grounds to use Architect. We would need a server, but would it be possible to set up a server solely for the purposes of Architect? Again, they don't own anything WE make.

Yeah, I know we couldn't do Plan Z with it. Architect doesn't have the capability to make multiplayer zones anyway. But it might be yet another way to keep the community alive while we work on Plan Z.

[Knightslayer]

Here's why: NCSoft does not own the stuff we made on Architect, and the client is free to download. That means we should be on solid legal grounds to use Architect. We would need a server, but would it be possible to set up a server solely for the purposes of Architect? Again, they don't own anything WE make.

Pretty sure they actually DO, considering they technically even own the characters we make in the game.
I could be way off, but I thought that's how it works at least. (and not just on CoH, most MMO's have it IIRC)

[Thirty-Seven]

Here's why: NCSoft does not own the stuff we made on Architect, and the client is free to download.

Ummm... well... technically they might... if we published the arc.

A close reading of the EULA actually indicates that they own all of the characters that we make within their game... they aren't ours.  I would assume that that extends to the characters/stories created and published with their wholly owned mission builder as well.

*shrug*

Edit: Beaten to the punch a bit.

[Scott Jackson]

6(b) is the relevant EULA section.  However, don't be too quick to think your IP rights are gone...

The first part of the paragraph covers ideas that you didn't create.  It simply asks you to acknowledge that you didn't own those things.  For example - maybe you made an in-game character based on a TV show villain, or a recreation of Statesman with a gold and black costume.  You never owned that IP anyway, and you're just acknowledging that fact.  This protects

The second part asks you to agree to let NCSoft use your original characters and stories.  It doesn't relinquish your IP rights to your characters or stories - it gives NCSoft a license to use them.   For example, you might have created an original character - once you make that character in-game, you give NCSoft the right to use it in an advertisement for CoH, or sell miniatures of it.  That license is perpetual and irrevokable, but non-exclusive.  You don't lose your rights to use the character, and you can still license those IP rights to other people.  The intent of this section is to protect NCSoft from a lawsuit by you.


They do, however, own the individual costume pieces and mission maps that you used to build your character or missions.  If they withdraw your license to use those, then using the character creator or AE would violate the EULA.  They have not yet withdrawn that license.  They granted it to you in section 2.

[Segev]

For example, you might have created an original character - once you make that character in-game, you give NCSoft the right to use it in an advertisement for CoH, or sell miniatures of it.  That license is perpetual and irrevokable, but non-exclusive.  You don't lose your rights to use the character, and you can still license those IP rights to other people.  The intent of this section is to protect NCSoft from a lawsuit by you.


They do, however, own the individual costume pieces and mission maps that you used to build your character or missions.  If they withdraw your license to use those, then using the character creator or AE would violate the EULA.  They have not yet withdrawn that license.  They granted it to you in section 2.

Hm, these two parts together open an interesting conundrum: You don't lose your right to, say, write a comic book based on your hero's adventures in his own setting with no characters-to-which-you-do-not-have-rights. But you built his entire look out of the Hero Creator, including costume bits, facial structure, body type, etc.

If NCSoft revokes your license to all those costume bits, etc., how drastically must you change your depiction of your character in order to keep writing your comic book for fun and profit?

[Thirty-Seven]

If NCSoft revokes your license to all those costume bits, etc., how drastically must you change your depiction of your character in order to keep writing your comic book for fun and profit?

I believe the rule of thumb is a 20% variance... but I could be mistaken.  What does that mean?  Well, it would mean that you could keep the color scheme and a few other details, but nothing on it should specifically be recognizable as a CoH art asset.

[Codewalker]

A close reading of the EULA actually indicates that they own all of the characters that we make within their game... they aren't ours.  I would assume that that extends to the characters/stories created and published with their wholly owned mission builder as well.

The EULA only grants NCSoft a license to use your characters. They don't own them, even if the EULA stated that they did own them, such a EULA would be illegal.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html

(a) A transfer of copyright ownership, other than by operation of law, is not valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer, is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's duly authorized agent.

You own your characters and stories, full stop. Even if NCSoft withdraws the license to use the costume pieces, you still own your character -- and their likeness, because of this section:

(1) A derivative work prepared under authority of the grant before its termination may continue to be utilized under the terms of the grant after its termination, but this privilege does not extend to the preparation after the termination of other derivative works based upon the copyrighted work covered by the terminated grant.

However, if said license is terminated, you can't legally use the character creator to make new characters. There is the question of how exactly NCsoft would notify you of that termination. Simply shutting down the servers doesn't necessarily terminate the license. Nor does ceasing subscription payments, since the game was free-to-play.

[Thirty-Seven]

Thanks for correcting me, Code!

[Segev]

You own your characters and stories, full stop. Even if NCSoft withdraws the license to use the costume pieces, you still own your character, because of this section:

However, if said license is terminated, you can't legally use the character creator to make new characters. There is the question of how exactly NCsoft would notify you of that termination. Simply shutting down the servers doesn't necessarily terminate the license. Nor does ceasing subscription payments, since the game was free-to-play.

They'd have to send you a cease-and-desist order, effectively. Though they could get away with much harsher wording if they made a good-faith public announcement that would pass a "reasonable man" test of "could the person in question have been expected to hear about this?"

(I'm not a lawyer; I just am fascinated by certain aspects of the law. Among these aspects is just how often the "reasonable man" standard applies.)

[Codewalker]

Well USC Title 17 does say it has to be a written notification:

(4) The termination shall be effected by serving an advance notice in writing, signed by the number and proportion of owners of termination interests required under clauses (1) and (2) of this subsection, or by their duly authorized   agents,   upon   the   grantee   or   the   grantee's   successor   in   title.

However, right before that it also says that it can only be terminated 35 years after the license term begins, so it may be talking about something else. I Am Not A Lawyer (TM) :)

[Scott Jackson]

If NCSoft revokes your license to all those costume bits, etc., how drastically must you change your depiction of your character in order to keep writing your comic book for fun and profit?

The answer depends on how you created the character.  If you created the character's costume long ago - let's say you had artwork of it from 2001 - and simply used the costume creator to make an approximation of that original design, you could freely use the original design even if it was identical to the in-game appearance.  You made the original design first and could prove it.

If you made the character either within the character creator from scratch, or made a character outside the game after being inspired by in-game costume elements, then while your original character's name and story belong entirely to you, you've created a derivative work of art using some IP from NCSoft, and would need to edit the costume to be safe to use it elsewhere.  I don't want to speculate on the precise amount of costume redesign you'd have to do.  Thirty7 may be right about the 20%; I haven't researched it.