Author Topic: Recent Questions on the Wiki  (Read 12592 times)

eabrace

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,291
Recent Questions on the Wiki
« on: January 20, 2014, 02:25:11 PM »
Just wanted to call attention to these two questions before they get lost in the Recent Changes log.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Portal_Corporation#Praetorians_and_Riktis
Quote
Before someone makes this question...

If you are wondering how did I learn the Praetorian world had suffered a Rikti invasion, the answer is in this post made by Manticore:

"On Praetorian Earth, Mother Mayhem was forced by Tyrant to push her powers in order to help defeat the Rikti. When she realized she was burning out she imposed her will on a fledgling super called Northern Light. The will of Mother Mayhem keeps Northern Light prisoner within her own body. Mother Mayhem has shown no signs of wanting her old body back."

The date is 9 May 2005, in case you want to go to the official forums and search it.

BTW, this also explains the different appearances between Sister Psyche and her Mother Mayhem Praetorian counterpart. =)

--Yakovlev 08:21, 28 September 2006 (PDT)


Is this valid, following Going Rogue? Seems like it probably isn't. Felderburg 16:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

From what I recall of the story lines in GR, I believe Felderburg is correct.  Anyone know of any evidence to the contrary?


http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Praetorians#Revamp_.2F_Rename.3F
Quote
I think that the current page is the way it is more due to its pre-Going Rogue format, and the desire to keep older groups like the robots or Dominatrix's followers around for valid linking on other pages. Many of the groups on this page don't exist or are changed entirely (like the robots becoming Clockwork, and I'm pretty sure Dominatrix's people were removed). Also, it seems to me several more of the enemies in Category:Praetorians could go here. I don't recall what many of them showed up as in game, but things like the Clockwork and Seers could probably fit on this page as well, since they're what replaced the robots and Mother Mayhem's crazy people (I think).

What I'm getting at is that there really does need to be some sort of revamp to this page, to clear up which groups are historical, which are current, and which are actually "Praetorians". I would even go so far as to suggest that this page be renamed. Why? The page was named when all that existed of Praetoria was a mirror version of each signature hero and their minions. Easy to keep that all in one page. But now, the Category:Praetorians is a much better list of what constitutes "Praetorians", and it seems to me that this page is misleading in that it establishes the AVs and some of their minions as the only "true" Praetorians.

Perhaps renaming this page to "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" would be a good idea. Link things that need to go here to this page, and then anything involving Praetorians in general, would go to the category, or the specific page as required. Felderburg 16:16, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

The Praetorians page was definitely laid out long before GR and its present form was largely a preservation of that original layout.

That being said, I think it would be best if the page only contained enemies who appeared specifically with "Praetorians" as their in-game affiliation.  Anyone already part of another group (e.g. Seers) should remain on their own page.

I wouldn't have a problem with the page itself being moved from "Praetorians" to "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" based mostly on the rationale that was laid out above.


Discuss!
Titan Twitter broadcasting at 5.000 mWh and growing.
Titan Facebook

Paragon Wiki admin
I was once being interviewed by Barbara Walters...In between two of the segments she asked me..."But what would you do if the doctor gave you only six months to live?" I said, "Type faster." - Isaac Asimov

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 04:51:50 PM »
Well, I brought them up, so I guess my case is laid out pretty clearly. I would like to raise one point on the naming of the Praetorians page. I think that renaming the page "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" is probably the best course of action, but there is another possibility:

The page "Praetorian Guard" redirects to that page, since the AVs / Praetors are also apparently known as the "Praetorian Guard". That phrase seems to be rarely used (albeit enough that it warrants a redirect) so the "Praetorians" page could be moved there - assuming that every enemy that's labeled as part of the "Praetorians" faction in-game are Praetors or their minions.

That's not really ideal, and it makes way more sense to just rename the page "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" so that it is clearly defined as containing NPCs that are labeled with that faction in-game, but I thought I'd mention it.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Blondeshell

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 04:08:24 AM »
Just wanted to call attention to these two questions before they get lost in the Recent Changes log.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Portal_Corporation#Praetorians_and_Riktis
From what I recall of the story lines in GR, I believe Felderburg is correct.  Anyone know of any evidence to the contrary?

I also don't recall any reference to the Rikti in the GR storylines. The reference by Manticore seems like a convenient way to explain the character models, which then became obsolete with the lore reset of Going Rogue. FWIW, here's the thread containing Manticore's post, for context.

Quote
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Praetorians#Revamp_.2F_Rename.3F
The Praetorians page was definitely laid out long before GR and its present form was largely a preservation of that original layout.

That being said, I think it would be best if the page only contained enemies who appeared specifically with "Praetorians" as their in-game affiliation.  Anyone already part of another group (e.g. Seers) should remain on their own page.

I wouldn't have a problem with the page itself being moved from "Praetorians" to "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" based mostly on the rationale that was laid out above.

It also makes more sense to me to move it to "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" and ignore the "Praetorian Guard" reference. I don't think I remember ever hearing that term before its mention here.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 04:39:46 AM »
Well, it seems like there's a consensus about changing it to "Enemy Group". I was going suggest making the page a disambig, pointing to the category of Praetorian NPCs or the enemy group, but the singular page "Praetorian" is already a disambig, and points to the plural as an enemy group, further supporting that change. Unless you want to make "Praetorians" redirect to the "Praetorian" disambig, and move its content to an entirely new "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" page, but that may mess up links (although hopefully a bot will be able to take all links to "Praetorians" and rename them "Praetorians (Enemy Group)"?)


As to Praetorian Guard: I found the term "Praetorian Guard" in the "Praetorians" talk page. A user was wondering if the "Praetorians" page should be moved to a page of that name, in case GR brought drastic changes, so the phrase does date from pre-GR times. A further search revealed that Marauder's current (post GR) backstory mentions the phrase (as do Neuron's and Tyrant's - indicating that it was an official phrase from the GR backstory). Another user, apparently going off of the comment in the talk page, created the page with a redirect (since I think it was a red link until he/she did), and even made an enemy template (used only in the Apex TF page - it should likely be the Enemy: Praetorians template instead, since they both link to the "Praetorians" page). There's also a number of missions that have NPC dialog that use the phrase, so it is a current and legit phrase to mean the AV Praetors.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 07:29:17 PM by Felderburg »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 06:23:24 PM »
I edited the Praetorian dimension description on the Portal Corps page. It now reads:

Quote
Originally thought of as a world where the signature heroes of Paragon City gave in to their darker side and became villains, Praetoria has since been shown to be a world with more shades of grey. Although many differences are present, this world may be one of the closest to Primal Earth, as it has its own version of many groups and persons of interest. The main divergence of history occurred when nuclear weapons were used in the Korean War, and the man later known as Emperor Cole temporarily abandoned civilization.

I thought about putting in more meta info, like "prior to Going Rogue...", but it seemed like the page was more "in-game" than meta-info. The first sentence is a bit of a nod to the fact that prior to GR, it was pretty boring in comparison.
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

eabrace

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,291
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 06:26:21 PM »
I thought about putting in more meta info, like "prior to Going Rogue...", but it seemed like the page was more "in-game" than meta-info. The first sentence is a bit of a nod to the fact that prior to GR, it was pretty boring in comparison.

Looks pretty good, and I would agree with your assessment.
Titan Twitter broadcasting at 5.000 mWh and growing.
Titan Facebook

Paragon Wiki admin
I was once being interviewed by Barbara Walters...In between two of the segments she asked me..."But what would you do if the doctor gave you only six months to live?" I said, "Type faster." - Isaac Asimov

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 11:23:19 PM »
I moved "Praetorians" to "Praetorians (Enemy Group)". It automatically made the first redirect to the Enemy Group. Until all the links are fixed (http://paragonwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Praetorians&limit=500) that redirect should stay - when they're fixed (and I'll work on that a bit) the page should probably redirect to the existing "Praetorian" disambig page, unless someone has a better use for it?
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 11:19:23 PM »
So, there are some patch notes that indicate the enemy group is actually "Praetorian" singular... Can anyone confirm what actually appeared above NPCs' heads in-game?

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-05-20#Powers_Text_Changes
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 03:58:03 AM »
So, there are some patch notes that indicate the enemy group is actually "Praetorian" singular... Can anyone confirm what actually appeared above NPCs' heads in-game?

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-05-20#Powers_Text_Changes

Yep, from a circa Issue-16 VillainDef.bin file:

Name = Chimera_Chimera
Class = Class_Boss_Archvillain
Gender = 2
DisplayDescription = When his parents were killed by the villain Doppleganger, Chimera was given the opportunity of a lifetime. Doppleganger took the boy under his wing and trained him to be the world's premiere silent killer. (P245456420)
GroupDescription = Praetorians (P1833469820)
DisplayClassName =
AIConfig = Signatures_Ranged
VillainGroup = 36

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 04:10:43 PM »
Yep, from a circa Issue-16 VillainDef.bin file:

Hot diggity dog! I assume these exist for everything. Is there an easy way to check that all the Praetorians are correctly placed on the wiki, or does getting these definition files take a lot of work? I ask because I want to be sure, with the changes to making the Praetorians page an enemy group, that everything on it actually belongs there. I didn't play a whole lot following GR, so I'm just not sure about Praetorian factions.

Additionally, I want to make sure that things on other enemy group pages belong there. Specifically, Olympian 29 had wording on his page that linked to both the Imperial Defense Force and the Praetorians page. It seemed to me the latter was meant to say "he's a Praetorian from Praetoria" and I changed it to reflect that belief, but it led me to the IDF. Are they their own faction?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 04:21:56 PM by Felderburg »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 05:28:53 PM »
The Olympian Guard are IDF members.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Blondeshell

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 01:41:40 AM »
Hot diggity dog! I assume these exist for everything. Is there an easy way to check [...], or does getting these definition files take a lot of work?

I'd also be curious to know this, especially for the enemy groups and events that were added after the shutdown: Summer Event enemies, Talons of Vengeance, and many named bosses across several enemy groups, among them.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 03:52:53 PM »
The question of revamping the Praetorians (Enemy Group) page, as well as this new Definitions file thing come together neatly in a question about Chimera's servants. Before GR, he had Cockatrices, Gorgons, and Basilisks, which were basically generic ninjas of minion, Lt., boss levels. This is how they appear on the Enemy Group page. After GR, Chimera's missions now had a "Project Phoenix", which involved those groups of generic enemies becoming unique, singular enemies to fight, in addition to the Phoenix being added. Currently, the missions link to the Praetorians (Enemy Group) page in the section that discusses which enemies you fight. Unfortunately, the new unique versions of the underlings only exist on the mission pages, so there are two questions:

1. Are the unique Basilisk, Cockatrice, Gorgon, and Phoenix enemies part of the Praetorians (Enemy Group)?

2. If they are, they need to be added, which I think lends itself to the needed revamp of the Praetorians (Enemy Group) page. What is the best way to do this? I personally lean towards a "historical" section and a "post GR" section.



One more thing: Does anyone know anything about Battle Maiden's "Animated Swords" from the Apex task force?

Edit: By the time this is read, I will have made sure everything that used to link to "Praetorians" now links to "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" or another proper page. There were actually several instances of it being where generic "Praetorians (the people)" or "Praetorian (Alignment)" was meant, so I think that adds credence to the idea that the content on "Praetorians" really does belong on a specific Enemy Group page, now that "Praetorians" is such a wide-ranging term.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 04:30:29 PM by Felderburg »
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2014, 04:33:23 PM »
1. Are the unique Basilisk, Cockatrice, Gorgon, and Phoenix enemies part of the Praetorians (Enemy Group)?

Yes, sort of. Technically they're in the Resistance enemy group (VillainGroup 104), but all of the villain definitions for the Project Phoenix versions have it overridden to show "Praetorians" instead.

Code: [Select]
Name = PraetorianResistance_BasiliskBoss
Class = Class_Boss_Grunt
Gender = male (2)
DisplayDescription = These trained killers were once part of Project Phoenix, following every order given to them by Praetor Sinclair. They now seek freedom from Sinclair at any cost. (P1172306039)
GroupDescription = Praetorians (P1833469820)
DisplayClassName =
AIConfig = Default_Ranged
VillainGroup = 104

Quote
One more thing: Does anyone know anything about Battle Maiden's "Animated Swords" from the Apex task force?

They're part of Battle Maiden's personal villain group, and have their group description overridden to show <Praetorian Guard>.

I'll see what I can do about getting a text dump of at least the I24 files posted somewhere.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 05:33:54 PM »
Yes, sort of. Technically they're in the Resistance enemy group (VillainGroup 104), but all of the villain definitions for the Project Phoenix versions have it overridden to show "Praetorians" instead.

Eh, close enough.

They're part of Battle Maiden's personal villain group, and have their group description overridden to show <Praetorian Guard>.

Son of a biscuit... Because the wiki didn't have any info on them, the template for the Enemy Group "Praetorian Guard" has been deleted. The only place it appeared was Apex's TF, where the swords appear. I wonder how many other "Praetorian Guard" enemy groups there are? Also, what is BM's personal villain group called?
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2014, 06:00:36 PM »
"Battle Maiden" :)

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 06:04:53 PM »
As to who else uses the Praetorian Guard group, looks like Battle Maiden herself in the Apex TF, as well as her reinforcements (Champion of War, etc).

There's also an Empowered Portal NPC that looks like it was designed to be used somewhere in the Apex TF, but I don't remember ever seeing it so I think it got scrapped but left in the files.

Bobcat is in the Praetorian Guard in both the Tin Mage TF and the mission in her arc when she robs a bank with you. Hilariously, her rank is set to show "Lazy Catgirl" in the mission version instead of Elite Boss.

Sekoia

  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,848
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 06:55:37 PM »
Son of a biscuit... Because the wiki didn't have any info on them, the template for the Enemy Group "Praetorian Guard" has been deleted.

I assume that means it shouldn't have been deleted, lol. I went ahead and restored it.

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 08:17:18 PM »
Well... how strict should the wiki be about making sure NPCs are in their proper Enemy Group pages? Should these Animated Swords get their own "Praetorian Guard" enemy group page? Or is the current "Praetorians (Enemy Group)" enough? I say it's enough, since there doesn't seem to be that many from the "Guard", and I'm almost inclined to bet that it was a new group introduced with GR that didn't get ported over to the old Praetorians - their artwork / models changed, but only ones used in new missions got their enemy group changed (and sometimes not even then).



Side question: the "GroupDescription" looks like it's what's actually over the NPC's head, but "VillainGroup" is a number of a specific group. Does the number count for defeat badges and such?
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: Recent Questions on the Wiki
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 09:09:24 PM »
Side question: the "GroupDescription" looks like it's what's actually over the NPC's head, but "VillainGroup" is a number of a specific group. Does the number count for defeat badges and such?

VillainGroup is what group they're a member of. It sometimes was used for defeat badges, but I think some badges did it by specific enemy instead if there needed to be exceptions.

If they have something in GroupDescription, it will be displayed over their head. If not, the name from the villain group (the number is looked up in VillainGroups.bin) is used. Most enemies use the name from their villain group -- GroupDescription is more like a local override that can change what it says for particular NPCs.